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On discussing grad school with interested students

Over the past couple of years, I've been increasingly approached by current or previous undergraduate students interested in pursuing graduate degrees in philosophy. I give them the usual warnings, pointing them to data on the philosophy job-market as well as to the APA Guide to Graduate Programs in Philosophy, enjoining them to look very carefully at the placement and attrition rates of programs they are thinking of applying to (a quick aside here: in perusing the Guide myself, I came across some PhD programs that report placing none of their recent graduates into full-time academic jobs and/or incredibly high attrition rates, their students leaving without finishing the program in droves! I could not help but wonder: how do these programs survive?). 

Still, although I give my students the usual warnings, direct them to data relevant to making an informed decisions, encourage them to look at that data very carefully, and discuss with their options with them, there are still several things I am increasingly uncertain about:

  1. What are our duties to students here? Do we have more than a duty to warn, provide information, etc.? If so, what?
  2. What should we say to students who are interested in pursuing graduate work in areas of philosophy (SPEP programs, Marxism, hermeneutics, etc.) that are outside of our own area of expertise/understanding and "mainstream rankings"?
  3. What should we advise students vis-a-vis MA programs, including again, MA programs in ? 
  4. Etc.

I realize these are very broad questions, but I am really just hoping to start a good, open discussion here. Although, as I have said before, I have long found something a bit off and off-putting about professors (people who have been successful in the field) telling students, "Don't go, don't follow your dreams–it's too big of a risk!", the longer I am in this game, the more I understand this perspective. Attempting a career in academic philosophy is an incredible risk, one the consequences of which are hard (if not impossible) to truly appreciate in advance (I know I was more than a bit naive heading into graduate school). And yet, at the same time, what would this world be if we simply encouraged people to give up risky dreams? Again, I find myself at a bit of a loss.

In any case, I would be very appreciate to hear any and all thoughts people have here. I suspect we would all–and, by extension, our students–benefit from a good discussion!

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3 responses to “On discussing grad school with interested students”

  1. Anonymoose

    Good thread. As an undergrad, I just didn’t realize how competitive PhD admissions was. I was aware of the blogs and the numbers, but for all of my academic life I had been the philosophy superstar. I wouldn’t say I was deluded, but I thought that if I was the very best student my university ever had, then I would stand a chance at some PhD programs. I was shut out of PhD admissions, and although I did apply to some very highly regarded schools, I was also rejected from schools further down the PGR. Fortunately, my advisors had also told me to apply to MAs. I did much better in MA admissions. The reality is that even the very best students from unranked schools don’t have any chance of admission, no matter how remarkable their GRE, GPA or letters may be. Folks like Eric Schwitzgebel have done some great research on this. Encouraging students otherwise is like telling them to buy a lottery ticket. Sure there’s a chance, but it’s just irresponsible to encourage people to invest in such grim odds.
    And PhD admissions are very expensive for the applicants. I think advisors should take it upon themselves to be aware of the costs (27 per GRE submission per school, 80+ fee per school on average, 5+ per transcript per school, etc.) If you advise a student to apply to 15 schools, know that it may well cost them 2,000 dollars (including the hundreds it costs to take and prepare for the GRE). My own recommendation is to really sit down with a student and learn about her interests, and recommend 8-10 programs based on a thoughtful discussion. If she can’t give you a clear sense of her interests, DO NOT recommend that she apply to PhD programs. MA programs are great for this kind of student, who shows philosophical promise but doesn’t have much awareness of the literature or a sense of what problems she finds most interesting.
    And of course, there’s the question of whether we ought to advise students to apply out at all. I would counsel students to consider other options if they can. Law school is a common choice for the philosophically inclined who want to have a non-academic career. Students are more likely to hear about the successful philosophers. Anyone they read and anyone advising them is successful. They got a job in philosophy. I think applicants would benefit from hanging around on more sobering blogs like Philosophy Smoker to see the realities of our profession before deciding this lifestyle is what they want.
    So, counsel students to consider non-academic jobs, but if they want to go to graduate school in philosophy, have a serious talk with them (or via email) about their interests and create a thoughtful list for them (or at least have them research a list and give input). If they can’t give you solid interests, recommend MAs, and really, recommend MAs anyway. No applicant is guaranteed a PhD spot, so it’s always smart to apply to 2 or 3 strong terminal MA programs as well (funded ones, like Georgia State, Northern Illinois, etc. Do not recommend any student to go to an unfunded MA). Anyway, make yourself aware of the costs of applying out, and guide students to be aware of the grim realities of our profession.

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  2. postdoc

    On thing no one ever told me which I wish they did is that philosophical ability is only part of it. There are of course exceptions but for the most part if you want to be successful in philosophy you need to be a good networker. So, if you’re shy, introverted, and don’t enjoy conferences, then don’t bother.

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  3. Marcus Arvan

    Hi postdoc: Shyness and introversion are not destiny. I score incredibly high on shyness and introversion measures, but I have worked very hard to overcome these tendencies. Socializing may not come naturally to a shy or introverted person (it doesn’t come naturally to me!), but one can always choose to put oneself out there and interact with others. At the very least, I would contest the idea that shy, introverted people “shouldn’t bother” attempting to enter academic philosophy for the reasons you mention.

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