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Job-Market Reporting Thread (2025-26)
Job-Market Discussion Thread (2026-27)

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Job-market discussion thread (2024-25 season)

Now that it's September, I figured now is probably a good time as any to open up this season's job-market discussion board. After all, readers who will be heading out on the market may already have questions you'd like to discuss (about application materials, the application process, etc.). So, please feel free to bookmark and visit this thread throughout the job season to commiserate with others, or just to see what others are talking about!

As many readers of the Cocoon may recall, each job season the Cocoon hosts two different job-market threads:

  1. A job-market discussion thread (the present thread): to commiserate about the market, discuss particular job ads, the market in general, questions about application materials, interviewing, alt-ac opportunities, and so on.
  2. A job-market reporting thread: to post news about interviews, on-campus visits, offers, rejection notices, etc.

This post will serve as the discussion thread, and as in the past I will open the reporting thread at a later date, around or after most job applications become due.

Because someone always asks, "Why two threads?", there are a couple of reasons. First, some people may want to discuss the market but not stress over daily news regarding which jobs they still do or don't have a chance for. Conversely, others may not want to discuss the market but just want news about the jobs they've applied for. Second, these threads can get very long already, so I think the best way for people to get the information they want in a well-ordered format is simply to have two threads.

A few final notes:

  • This thread (the post you are reading right now!) will be the home of this year's job-market discussion thread. So, if you want to discuss this year's job-market, just comment below.
  • Please reserve job-market news (i.e. interviews, on-campus visits, hires, etc.) for the job-market reporting thread, which I will open sometime in September.
  • A 'permalink' to this thread will be on the upper right of blog's right sidebar for the rest of the job season. –>
  • Because of Typepad's functionality limitations (which only permits 100 comments before starting a new comment page), readers may elect to bookmark each new page of comments as each new page emerges. I recognize that it can be frustrating to scroll through page after page to get to new comments, and I think this is probably the best solution given Typepad's functionality limitations.

Finally, as always, readers are asked to please bear in mind the Cocoon's supportive mission. I try not to moderate with too heavy of a hand, as I don't like to squelch reasonable discussion and debate. I also realize that the job-market can be an emotional roller-coaster, and that passions can run deep on job-market issues. But the Cocoon has always been intended to be an unique oasis of sorts: as a refuge for early-career philosophers to support each other and discuss issues related to their careers and the profession in productive, supportive way. So, I will moderate carefully to ensure that these threads remain a welcome environment for everyone–and, of course, if anyone has any concerns, please do not hesitate to let me know.

All that being said, discuss away!

Posted in ,

478 responses to “Job-market discussion thread (2024-25 season)”

  1. old hand tips

    Thank you Marcus!
    One way to avoid manually scrolling through all the comments or bookmarking each new page is just to look at “recent comments” in the sidebar of the cocoon homepage. In job market season there’s usually something there from both job threads, and clicking on it will take you directly to the most recent page of comments.

    Reply
  2. Pomelo

    Does Toronto post an M and E job every year or is it just me?

    Reply
  3. UK Grad Student

    What’s up with elite research institutions (e.g., Princeton) not requesting a Research Statement as part of the application package? Are they content with the 1-2 paragraphs on research in the cover letter?

    Reply
  4. sahpa

    @UK Grad Student: in my experience pretty much only Princeton does that. The story I heart is that Gilbert Harman some time ago convinced the faculty there that they can and should just look at the CV to decide.

    Reply
  5. job market newbie

    If a job doesn’t explicitly ask for a dissertation abstract, is it okay (or even beneficial) to include one at the bottom of your CV?

    Reply
  6. Guy

    Is anyone aware of a job that an institution posted on its own HR site but never made it to any of the major phil jobs hubs (philjobs, higheredjobs, etc.)? I’m wondering if that might be true of some CC jobs given the potential for HR folks outside the discipline to be unaware of the sites. (I’m wondering if it would be worth it to sporadically peruse the HR sites of one or two dozen two-year schools.)

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  7. job ad hunter

    @Guy, this is year seven on the job market for me, and I’ve seen HR sites post job ads that didn’t appear on PhilJobs or HigherEdJobs maybe ten times. As far as I can tell, in each of these cases, the department was making an inside hire, following protocol by listing the job on their own site, and wasn’t actually looking for applicants to consider.
    But if others have had other experiences, I’d be curious to learn about it.

    Reply
  8. Inside Knowledge

    @Guy:
    Generally, no. Most institutions (especially public institutions) have as part of AA/EO guidelines that ads be publicly posted. In cases I can think of where ads were not posted, they were inside hires (e.g., a mechanism to move a lecturer to a TT position, etc.); but in those cases, it’s not likely you’ll get the job anyway.
    But just to underscore what I think it’s an important point: it’s definitely worth noting that looking at sites other than PhilJobs for the most comprehensive search, since not all institutions qualify under the APA’s non-discrimination policy. So, for example, Baylor does not post ads in PhilJobs but will advertise positions in the Chronicle or IHE instead.

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  9. AnAnon

    @Guy: My CC advertises on higheredjobs but not, I believe, anything discipline-specific. Back when I was looking for CC jobs I some listed on communitycollegejobs.com, although that’s been several years and I’m not sure how often philosophy jobs show up there these days.
    Checking the HR sites of a handful of CCs one found particularly attractive may be a good idea, but casting a wider net than that seems like a bad use of time to me.

    Reply
  10. AnAnon

    @Guy: I’ll add that our most recent search attracted what struck me as a pretty low number of applications, which suggests that it did stay off a lot of people’s radar. Or maybe my school/area is just really unattractive to a lot of people. But probably it stayed off a lot of people’s radar.

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  11. Strange?

    Why do so many jobs have October 1st deadlines this year? Does anyone else find this odd?

    Reply
  12. Buckying the trend?

    Is Wisconsin really hiring 9 new philosophers?

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  13. Exhausted

    @Buckying I see 6, not 9? What I am finding annoying quite honestly is how late these jobs are being posted. Some of us have heavy teaching loads and must prepare each dossier with enough time in advance.

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  14. wisconsin info

    Wisconsin is hiring 3-6 people per a post I saw on facebook from one of their faculty.

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  15. wisconsin info

    p.s. I see why Buckying thought 9 (by adding up the two job postings), but I think what’s probably going on is there are up to 6 positions, and they are allowed to hire up to 3 of those people at the associate/full level, so technically it is possible that they hire 6 junior people and 0 senior, or 3 senior or 3 junior, or something in between…

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  16. huh, UNC?

    has anyone asked UNC how they want us to “arrange for them to receive four letters of recommendation”? I think this is the first job ad I’ve seen (and I did go into the application system to check) where there doesn’t seem to be any further instruction about that, and I imagine Mariska Leunissen doesn’t want conservatively 2000 letters of recommendation being emailed directly to her personal email? (I don’t want to be the one to ask but eventually will…)

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  17. Ten Years After

    @Guy
    This was the situation with the job I just started this year. It probably happened because there was only one full-time philosophy faculty who obtained an MA over 20 years ago and didn’t know about newer resources.
    I found the job by searching Google jobs for philosophy jobs in my area.

    Reply
  18. Mike Titelbaum

    Just to clarify what people were wondering about above, here at UW-Madison we’re looking to hire up to 6 people this year. Because we ask for slightly different materials from junior candidates than senior, it made more logistical sense for our admin if we posted two separate job listings. Both are open-area, but one is for senior candidates and the other is for junior. (Roughly speaking, you should apply for the former if you have tenure, the latter if not, but I realize that in some contexts that’s not the relevant distinction, so if you have any questions feel free to email me!) Applications for both listings are being reviewed together, and how many we hire at what rank will depend on the process that unfolds.
    And apologies about when the ads went up. They were posted on our HR site on August 30, the earliest we could achieve given when our contract year starts. But it took a while after that for them to appear on various other sites.

    Reply
  19. Justin

    Hello, I’m a relatively new Associate Professor looking to apply for Full positions this year, and I’m wondering what schools are looking for in contemporary cover letters. I haven’t had to write one since 2017. Many thanks in advance!

    Reply
  20. samequestion

    I have the same question as jobmarketnewbie, which I will post again here to bump it:
    “If a job doesn’t explicitly ask for a dissertation abstract, is it okay (or even beneficial) to include one at the bottom of your CV?”

    Reply
  21. 1SC2cents

    @jobmarketnewbie and @samequestion
    My 2 cents is that it’s certainly okay and does not hurt. It sometimes helps; sometimes doesn’t. If it’s a short summary you can include it in your cover letter. If it’s a long summary people might not read it carefully (in comparison to the research statement).

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  22. Confused

    Madison’s job advert stipulates that the teaching portfolio should “showcase the applicant’s ability to purposefully plan their teaching practices, evidenced through goals, action plans, reflection, and related documentation”.
    Is this another way of asking for a complete teaching portfolio (i.e., including a teaching statement, teaching evaluations, and sample syllabi)? Or is this supposed to signal a need for something extra?

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  23. Secondhuh

    I’d like to second huhUNC?’s question about how we’re supposed to get the letters to them

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  24. Mike Titelbaum

    @Confused: Let’s just say not all the verbiage that appears in a job ad is written by the department. A standard teaching portfolio will be completely fine. Thanks for asking!

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  25. Mariska Leunissen

    @huhUNC and others who are wondering the same thing: the snafu with UNC’s faulty HR-link has been fixed, and the new, properly working one just went live yesterday. So please use this link for your applications: https://unc.peopleadmin.com/postings/287991
    The application portal requests a List of References as part of a standard required document, but it’s not taking the place of the reference portal for the letters (you can use emails there or interfolio links). Once applicants submit their application, a link is sent to their recommenders for them to upload their letters (with a minimum of 3 a maximum of 5).
    For any questions, please email me at mleunissen@unc.edu
    With apologies for all the inconvenience this has caused!!!

    Reply
  26. slim pickings?

    Is it looking like a lean year for R1 TTs, or are job posting rates simply slow at this stage in the season as a matter of course?

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  27. also wondering

    @slim pickings? Someone correct me if you know better, but I hear that it’s still early. I know of one department that was only able to meet to finalize the language for their job ad this past week (and it’s not posted yet). Schools on the quarter system will likely take longer, too.

    Reply
  28. aestheticians need jobs too

    Two aesthetics jobs posted to PhilJobs on the same day! That has to be a first, no? Does anyone keep track of these things?

    Reply
  29. and non-metaethicist aestheticians need jobs…

    For something like the St. Andrews aesthetics/metaethics job, surely they don’t mean aos BOTH aesthetics and metaethics, right? Just one or the other would suffice to apply?

    Reply
  30. Hopeful

    This is definitely the most aesthetics I’ve seen on philjobs! Is the subfield hot now??

    Reply
  31. Not an aesthetician

    @Hopeful, the subfield of aesthetics is notorious for having very few job openings, maybe the fewest by subfield, so I wouldn’t call it hot, no. It’s good that there are some jobs this year, though, since (as I think we all can agree) art is cool.

    Reply
  32. Michel

    Hopeful: one year there were eight, but then there were none for many years after. It’s part of the normal pattern–0-1 most of the time, occasionally a few more.
    Best take advantage while you can!

    Reply
  33. Is it still early?

    In addition to a lack of r1 tt ads (assuming some may be posted still?), am I imagining the lack of postdocs? No big open ones (bersoff, princeton skolnkick, mit stalnaker, etc.) – anyone know what’s up?

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  34. shrug

    @slim: As someone in their fourth year on the market, I would say this is far and away the worst I’ve seen at this point. I do mostly continental tho – a distinction I make simply because it makes me unqualified for many positions in North America – so maybe the anglo-analytic stuff is having a much better time. i did see pitt just posted multiple positions.

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  35. Sigh

    Jobs are decreasing and lateral movements are increasing (closing research lines for years until the department opens a new search). This cannot be good.

    Reply
  36. Confused

    Hello, seeking advice here:
    I was recently hired for a longterm, full-time non-TT position in a department, and that department is now planning to hire a position with an AOS that is remarkably close to my own. And yet I have not been encouraged to apply for the position, and in fact, I have been asked to serve on the hiring committee. How might I approach the chair with my desire to apply for the position in as delicate, respectful, and non-presumptuous a manner as possible?

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  37. r53

    Asking you to serve on the panel is their way of saying that you have no chance of being hired, IMO.

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  38. jobs

    The market gets pushed later and later every year. No cause for panic. Plenty jobs will be posted in time.

    Reply
  39. jed bartlet

    @slim and @shrug: I’m someone who is slated to be on the search committee for an R1 TT job that has not yet been posted. In my (admittedly narrow) experience, this is not uncommon, and is likely a function of various checkpoints and approval processes moving more slowly than one would hope.
    I completely understand the anxiety, but you might take comfort in knowing that at least one, and presumably many more such job postings, are coming soon enough.

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  40. anon

    I have no doubt that there are still some departments that will post in the coming days/weeks. However, I think it’s overly optimistic to expect this market to be comparable to recent years. My partner is a Political Scientist (whose market is much earlier than Philosophy – all flyouts happen in the fall, so all jobs have been posted by now) and their market is roughly 1/2 of what it was last year. Given that Philosophy jobs are well behind what they would be on a normal year – and that other disciplines are seeing serious contraction – I expect there will be relatively few jobs available this year.

    Reply
  41. grim forecasting

    As someone who’s on the market for the fifth time, I agree that this year is looking notably worse than the past couple, even if we take into account the likelihood of late postings. Does anyone have any insight (or guesses) as to why that might be?

    Reply
  42. numbers

    Just to put some numbers on what people are observing, here’s what I get with the following PhilJobs search:
    Jobs from August 1-Sept. 28 2023 no filters, checked box for include expired ads: 179
    Jobs from August 1-Sept. 28 2023 filtered for TT or similar, checked box for include expired ads: 105
    For 2024, the first number is 150, the second number 74.

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  43. Anon

    If we are seeing fewer jobs, it might be related to the FAFSA fiasco. Because of all of the glitches in rolling out the new online FAFSA application, approximately 9 percent fewer high school seniors and other first-time applicants submitted a FAFSA for the 2024-25 school year. Add this to the demographic cliff we are facing and we can see that enrollments are down across the country…leading to budget cuts, etc.

    Reply
  44. Trends

    The white collar job market is cool in general, and academia is probably following suit. Universities might be preparing for a potential blow to the endowment, much as companies seem to be anticipating a recession.
    (In my opinion this a rough time to try to transition to industry, too, so the tough academic job market stings even more.)

    Reply
  45. I’m a pluralist!

    Anyone have a scoop on the Clemson job? On the one hand, the AOS is Metaphysics, Epistemology, Philosophy of Science (i.e. analytic). On the other, the list of AOCs reads to me as Continental-coded.
    It seems unlikely that ONE candidate would thread that needle, even a pluralist. Any ideas what they are really looking for here?

    Reply
  46. not a scoop

    Clemson says they are looking for someone with “broad philosophical training” who can teach in a variety of areas. If you hit the AOS and any of the AOCs, which is not unusual, then you are a plausible candidate (on the AOS/AOC basis).
    I don’t think you need someone with “a scoop” on this ad. It seems normal to me. There are plenty of epistemologists who work in philosophy of science and feminist philosophy and can teach logic (and maybe TA’d philosophy of film or philosophy of race). Their continental ad is framed the same way.

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  47. anon

    Maybe there’s a scoop there, but maybe not. I didn’t get the sense that they wanted all those AOCs, just that it was the list of teaching needs that currently weren’t getting met, and wouldn’t be getting met from their planned AOS hire (just in itself) either. So they’re interested in knowing if you tick any of those boxes.
    It’s also a department that seems to be joined together with religion, and when religion people engage with philosophy, it’s often continental (this is just a rough statement about a trend). So someone with “continental competence” might be a good fit for that community. I don’t know anything in particular about the culture they have, though, this is just speculation.

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  48. quaestiones

    Did everyone who submitted to Oakland and Princeton get letters pulled?

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  49. Overconfidence is a slow and insidious killer

    @quaestiones
    Mine were pulled for both, so I assume the answer is yes.

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  50. skeptical

    @quaestiones I think this whole “letter pulling” thing is a bit of a red herring. My Princeton letters were shown as “provided” like a day after submitting my application. I am sure that nobody from Princeton requested letters by hand. I think the requests just go out automatically when you apply. (I also think this is the case for most US junior jobs, despite all of the “letter pulling” updates that get posted on here.) Anyone have any more info about this?

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  51. seven-year itch

    @skeptical, that sounds right to me, without knowing anything about the Princeton search. Ideally, we would have terminology to distinguish automatically requested letters for every applicant from pulled letters, with the latter meaning that the search committee is requesting letters from only some applicants in preparation to move onto another phase of the search. As it tends to go, though, “letters pulled” is used here to mean either.

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  52. Still Confused

    Thanks, @Mike Titelbaum, for clarifying that Madison are looking for a regular teaching portfolio.
    Does anyone have insight into those jobs that ask only for a teaching statement (Columbia, USC, Miami)? Is the implication that they don’t want the other constitutive components of a teaching portfolio (teaching evaluations + sample sylalbi)?

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  53. re confused

    Yes, I would submit only a statement of teaching philosophy if all they ask for is a statement of teaching philosophy.
    If they ask for statement of teaching philosophy plus evidence of teaching effectiveness, then I give them the dossier.

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  54. No Longer Confused in the Relevant Sense

    @re confused: Thanks for clarifying. Although I do find it odd that a hiring committee would request an exaggerated teaching statement without the hard data (evaluations) or at least some proof-of-concept (sample syllabi) to back it up.

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  55. Clueless about writing samples

    Hi all, I have an AOS in modern philosophy. I have published a paper on a canonical figure that came out in a very good journal early last year, and I also work on a relatively unknown figure, and have a paper that received an R&R at a very good journal. My question is: what should I be using for my writing sample? The paper that was published early last year (does that make me look stale??) Or the one that is current, but r&r on someone no one knows? Should i lead with onepaper and send the second one indicating in my cover letter that it’s there in case the SC wants to see it? I have another paper that is underreivew at a place notorious for desk rejections, and several other papers for edited volumes and one coming out in a very good anthology too, so it’s not as if it will look like I don’t have things in the pipeline for publication, but I am not sure what should be done here.

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  56. senior person

    @no longer confused: your teaching statement shouldn’t be a brag or talk yourself up. It should be about what you in fact do when you teach (in the classroom, assignments, what your main motivations/philosophical commitments are in your teaching, etc.). I would think it would be a bit strange to worry those are exaggerated. The purpose of the teaching statement is to get a sense of what you’re about as a teacher, not your accomplishments or how much your students like you or anything like that.

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  57. speaking for and as a non-specialist

    Clueless
    Send the published paper on the canonical figure. In most cases your sample will be read by non-specialists, so it is better if they had at least heard of the person whose views you discuss.

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  58. sahpa

    @no longer confused: evaluations are hard data, if they are, only concerning how popular you are as a teacher.

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  59. Please ask for letters later

    Some of us use interfolio for letter uploading. I know this is probably beyond the capacity of philosophy search committees, but if not, please ask for letters at later stages of application. a) You probably won’t read any of them until later stages; b) each uploaded letter actually financially costs the applicant.
    (The paid basic subscription to interfolio allows us to upload letters 50 times, then we will have to buy more quotas.)

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  60. Richard

    Echoing with fervency @ please ask

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  61. Marcus Arvan

    @Richard: I’ll amplify this in a new post on the main page on Monday.

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  62. anon search committee member

    FWIW I think people in many (maybe most?) searches read letters even on the first pass (at least skim them). While I’m sorry for the costs to candidates, I personally find letters really valuable on even a first pass (I know there’s variety in this and also disagreement about whether they are just noisy, but, at least at the extreme ends of the spectrum, my experience is that they are NOT just noisy.)

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  63. Craig

    @Richard, @Please:
    Although the financial stuff matters (a lot!), I think that there are probably some reasons of prudence to ask for things all at once. This process is so emotionally fraught, and so my guess is that, for most or at least many applicants, they are better off not being aware of whether or not they made some intermediate cut. You can see upthread and in prior-year threads how often applicants try to read the tea leaves of letters being requested. I suspect that most of us are better off if we are just denied the possibility of tea leaves. This is just a conjecture, and it surely doesn’t apply for everyone, so ymmv…

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  64. scmember

    Echoing @Craig, I was on a committee once where we asked for letters at a later stage, but this then added a significant delay to being able to process applications and determine a short list quickly (in part because we felt it would be prudent to give folks a few weeks to get their letters in, and because there was an additional administrative delay that this two-step process caused). My sense is that this caused downstream effects, which in other circumstances could have hurt or derailed the search (made more salient by our non elite status). It may also have been helpful to have letters to help decide on a few edge cases. Still, having been on the market several times in recent years, I empathize with the OPs point.

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  65. how to reduce upload costs

    Just since the cost, of Interfolio deliveries was mentioned above, I thought I’d emphasize: when a candidate bundles up some files and has Interfolio send those files as an “email delivery” to a specific address, it shows up as a “free email delivery” in their account history.
    (this is how it goes for me, anyways)
    By contrast, when an application system has various little slots for email addresses of my letter writers, and when I input an email address and Interfolio sends them a letter, this is what makes the paid credits total go down and eventually cause a person to get more paid credits.
    So it comes down to whether HR forces you to do things the second way. The first way is better.
    This has been mentioned before, maybe even on Letier reports. But it seemed to me that some of the above commenters may not have been aware, so I thought I’d put it out there.

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  66. Pomelo

    Apologies if this has been covered elsewhere. I have the impression that cover letters for European jobs are typically expected to be longer and more detailed than those for states-based jobs. Is that right?

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  67. looking to not waste my time

    When a job is posted with a very short time between posting and deadline (e.g. the recent U of Iowa posting with only 10 days in between) is it generally safe to assume there’s an internal candidate?

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  68. NotAHawkeye

    @looking
    It’s a soft deadline. I feel like I’ve seen a number jobs posted late (relative to their soft deadline) this cycle. I don’t have any inside information though.

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  69. Maybe not

    I really don’t think so (re:internal candidate). But you could try directly asking them why there is so little time.

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  70. Anony

    @Looking. Maybe, but there could be other reasons.
    I know a few institutions around me that had very quick deadlines. One was functionally because they knew who they were going to hire, there was an immediate need, and they just had to follow university process.
    The other was out of fear of the university reversing course on the search.
    And a few years back, another place was hiring two full-timers. They made one of the two deadlines immediate, hoping to handle that hiring process in the Fall and the other in the Winter.
    I have no special info about the Iowa search, however.

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  71. The Call Never Comes From Inside the House, Right?

    It is one thing to ask for generic documents. Totally reasonable to ask for a writing sample, a research statement, and either a teaching statement or a teaching portfolio.
    But there is something amusing about a school that both indicates tons of progressive concern and insists on four tightly constrained, sometimes even bespoke dossier elements.
    If you care about the goals of diversity, equity, and inclusiveness”, “inclusive excellence”, “underserved and diverse populations”, “the aspirations[] and needs of students from diverse backgrounds,” and “people with disabilities, minorities, veterans and women,” then you should think about the effects of a serious battery of hurdles particular to your institution, during the midst of a long, hard process.

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  72. retweet

    Just want to agree wholeheartedly with @Inside the house’s points. This may be worth a standalone post, since there are many such cases of this! Would be nice for sc members to see it (and they may not be viewing this thread).

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  73. UK cover letters

    @ Pomelo
    Yes, I think this is true. I work in the UK, and we regularly get cover letters that are 3 or even 4 pages long. Part of this is that we do not ask for other documents (research plans are occasionally asked for, teaching statements also, but never, for example, a full teaching dossier).
    For the UK at least, the cover letter is key to show that you have good ‘fit’ with the role and the wider department. Take the space that that requires (though naturally don’t stretch it unnecessarily with filler – e.g.,if they ask for a research statement, spend less time on this though still some time as first cut will likely be on CV and cover letter alone). A reasonable approach might be to take the documents you have for US searches and condense them down into the cover letter.

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  74. # of letters

    If a job ad states 3 letters, is that a hard limit? If it is not, should I submit more (e.g., letters from my committee, an external, and a teaching letter)? Relatedly, if I have X references, but I only submit X-Y letters, should I list all X on my CV or should I only list those who I submitted letters from?

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  75. Epistolar

    How would you submit more, though? There is usually a limit to the docs you can upload or fields you can fill. I submit as many strong letters as the job allows—in my case, four, but less when there is a limit.

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  76. seven-year itch

    @Letters people, I have heard of searches where applicants who submitted documents other than what was specified in the job ad, including more letters, were viewed unfavorably or worse. I have also read posts from search committee members who were upset about being given more documents than they asked for, complaining about issues of time and inequity. All of this is purely anecdotal evidence from posts on this blog over the years.

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  77. seven-year itch

    Followup to last post: so I only submit extra letters to jobs that specify “at least X letters.” If a job asks for three, I give them three. If they ask for “at least three,” I give them four or five. Then again, I’m in my seventh year on the job market and don’t have a TT job, so…

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  78. Assc prof

    Some departments don’t even remember what they ask for. A couple years ago I had an interview with a NE flagship for a modern position. A search committee member, clearly annoyed, asked why I hadn’t submitted a syllabus for modern. I responded that they didn’t ask for one (just a statement plus evals). Not sure if there’s a moral to this story other than that there are always exceptions to every job market rule.

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  79. editable

    Q: Is it everyone else’s understanding that as long as an application is ‘editable’ on interfolio, you can replace originally submitted documents with new ones without compromising your application? I’ve made a slight change to a document that I included as part of an application that I submitted early, and I like the new version better. But wasn’t sure what would happen if I opened the application up to change things around.

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  80. rutgers

    I imagine there aren’t a lot of senior applicants on here, but by chance does someone have info about the Rutgers tenured job? The link to the job application is broken and I couldn’t find it on their site.

    Reply
  81. editable response

    It’s definitely my understanding that as long as you can edit your application on interfolio you’re at liberty to do so. They can close applications if they prefer applicants not to.

    Reply
  82. Just wondering

    Q: if a post-doc asks for a teaching statement and evals, is it expected that one includes sample syllabi?

    Reply
  83. Mariana

    @ Just wondering Just give them what they ask. My rule of thumb: if they are precise, be precise. If they ask for a portfolio more “generically,” send them ALL.

    Reply
  84. I agree

    Ditto what Mariana said. If a job asks for something in particular (a syllabus on technology ethics or whatever) then send them that. If they ask for “stuff about teaching” (by using generic terms like a teaching dossier or evidence of teaching effectiveness) then send them your whole curated portfolio of evals and teaching statement and sample syllabi and whatever. This seems to fall in the first category–by deliberately using narrow terminology they are making it clear they only want those things.

    Reply
  85. Just an Observer

    Is it just me, or are there no job ads looking for logicians?

    Reply
  86. anon

    I think sparse offerings are pretty standard for certain areas – logic and aesthetics are what come to mind most immediately for me.

    Reply
  87. Squirrely

    Has anyone else received a request to access their letters of recommendations from WI-Madison? (I did, which apparently means I made their first round cut, not that that means anything.)

    Reply
  88. Go Badgers!

    My letters were automatically requested by WI-Madison from Interfolio at the point of submitting my application. I assume that your letters were requested at some point after submitting your application?

    Reply
  89. logician

    @ Just an Observer: the job market in logic has been bad for quite a while now, with few TT positions going. However, there are still opportunities to apply for postdoctoral funding (particularly in Europe), which can sustain one on the job market for a while (if one is sufficiently lucky, stubborn etc.).
    Logicians on the market would be well served to cultivate a secondary speciality in something in-demand, and perhaps on the applied end of the spectrum. Philosophy of artificial intelligence is an obvious suggestion. Although a field full of confusion and snake oil, it does offer opportunities for the technically-minded to clarify ongoing debates and perhaps pick some low-hanging fruit.

    Reply
  90. anon

    @Squirrely, I don’t think that means you made the first cut. The ad says: “References will be contacted upon application submission.”
    Also, making the first-round cut at a job like WI-Madison certainly does mean something! If you did make it, resist the urge to downplay–that’s a big deal.

    Reply
  91. Badger State

    @ Squirrely: they pulled my letters earlier this month (I believe it was the same day that my application was submitted).

    Reply
  92. Squirrely

    anon and Badger State: now I am sincerely confused. The ad says “In addition, you will be asked to provide the names and contact information for three references. (These references will not be contacted unless the candidate advances in the process, at which time the candidate will be contacted prior to reaching out to the reference).” The ad is here: https://www.higheredjobs.com/faculty/details.cfm?JobCode=178896892&Title=Professor%20Of%20Philosophy
    They did not pull my letters upon my application submission. Someone reached out via email and said they wouldn’t access my letters unless I responded affirmatively to their message.
    If anyone has insight, please share!

    Reply
  93. Bearer o’ bad news

    Pulling letters doesn’t necessarily mean anything, I’m sorry to say. Committees will often pull letters from everyone. It likely just means they’re reading all applications completely, which again doesn’t portend anything of significance.

    Reply
  94. bearer o’ neutral news

    For UWM, there are separate ads for senior and junior applicants. For senior applicants, there is language that says that letter pulling does indeed mean something: “…references will not be contacted unless the candidate advances in the process, at which time the candidate will be contacted prior to reaching out to the reference).” This language isn’t in the junior ad, which pulled letters right away. So, my guess is everyone’s right; Squirrely can be excited, junior applicants don’t have to be disappointed yet 🙂

    Reply
  95. madletters

    RE: Madison
    The application description on their website says: “In addition, you will be asked to provide the names and contact information for three references. References will be contacted upon application submission.If a candidate has more than three references, please send the name and email contact for additional references to pvl304309@philosophy.wisc.edu.” This seems to be an indication that all applications had letters pulled automatically when they submitted their application.

    Reply
  96. oudeis

    UW-Madison is conducting searches for both junior and assoc/full positions. The ad for the junior search says that letters are pulled upon submitting one’s application; the assoc/full ad says that letters are pulled only if one advances in the process.

    Reply
  97. Optimal Job Market Theorem

    logician,
    I’d add formal ethics, formal political philosophy (optimal voting systems etc.) and formal epistemology as areas where I have seen true logicians use their skills while increasing their employability.

    Reply
  98. Mike Titelbaum

    Just to clarify the situation here in Madison: We wanted reference letters for everyone who applied to our junior position. In some cases those came in with the application (either by Interfolio or via direct submission); when they didn’t, our administrators tried to track down the missing letters. For people who applied to our senior position, we are only requesting letters once they make an initial cut. There’s a small exception for a handful of people who accidentally applied to the senior position but clearly should have applied to the junior (for instance, folks who are still ABD)—in that case we’ve treated them like a junior and tried to obtain their letters.
    One further note about timing: Because we have so many applications, we’ve divided them up among our colleagues, which stretches the process over a longer-than-usual period. Zoom interviews will take place from early November through late December; we’re going to try to do flyouts both before and after our winter break. So some people may get invitations for Zoom interviews before others have even had their letters requested (and so forth). If you hear that others have been contacted for a particular stage in this process, and you haven’t heard anything, that doesn’t necessarily mean you’ve been eliminated!

    Reply
  99. Things taking longers?

    Is it just me or have almost none of the October 1st deadlines yet culminated in Zoom interviews?
    It seems the job market is taking a little longer this year in several ways (lots of late deadlines, longer times between submission of docs and interview requests?)

    Reply
  100. logician

    @ Optimal Job Market Theorem: I agree with those, albeit with the caveat that I don’t see a lot of ethics in the circles I travel in. But I know a lot of people who started out in logic and are now formal epistemologists, computational social choice theorists, etc.
    Which is to say: one can start out adding another string to one’s bow for job-market purposes, and eventually find oneself primarily in a different field to where one started. This is not, generally speaking, a bad thing.

    Reply
  101. logic in SA

    Brazil has tons of logicians who do nothing but logic. Many grad departments have 2-4. If you really want to get hired as a logician, learn a bit of Portuguese and try your hand there.

    Reply
  102. Bard?

    Any update on the position at Bard? Deadline was 10/1…

    Reply
  103. 1st time applicant

    Anybody have an idea of how often universities just ghost applicants instead of rejecting them? If any of you are on search committees, please send rejections instead of just ignoring applicants!

    Reply
  104. Anonimal

    I’ve been at this long enough to experience, first hand, the change in etiquette (and applicant expectations) surrounding PFOs. The most important thing to bear in mind is that each University’s HR will dictate how PFOs are handled, rather than individual departments. Universities with humane HR policies might still allow chairs of hiring committees to communicate with applicants, but I can imagine that HR managers worried about legal action would do their best to dissuade committees from doing so (I em>suspect that when things were once handled directly by the hiring department and people snail mailed applications, there would have been a great deal of idiosyncrasy in communications).
    In any case, as universities centralized and standardized various practices (to comply with DEI initiatives), things like PFOs have become increasingly rare — and you’ll likely only receive one once a hire has been made (and the contract signed). This includes people who’ve had on campus interviews, in some cases.
    For the most part, I don’t think this really matters: If you haven’t heard back from a North American program within ~35 calendar days, you can write that application off. If you receive an interview request after that point, you’ll be delighted. ~14 calendar days is about the right amount of time for UK/Australian positions. I’m sure others know about other European markets.
    The one place where prompt PFOs — especially for people who have been interviewed — would be extremely helpful are for potentially unemployed applicants. The PFOs can be used as evidence that one is complying with job search requirements to receive benefits. But no one seems to consider this.

    Reply
  105. seven-year itch

    Entirely agree with @Anonimal, though I would say that about -50 days, i.e., a little more than a month and a half, is about right for when to give up on US jobs, and Canadian jobs might take a bit longer. (I’ve never applied elsewhere in North America.) Otherwise, amen to all of that.

    Reply
  106. seven-year itch

    @Anonimal’s post got me wondering how long it has typically taken for me to get first-round interview requests relative to job ads closing, so I went back and checked my data from last three years.
    In general, it seems like most first-round interview requests I’ve gotten have come about three weeks after closing date, though the extremes are a week later and over two months later. Of course, this information only represents the kinds of jobs for which I am interviewing and might vary across subfields and institutions, etc.
    Here are some numbers (all TT jobs in the US unless specified):
    2023-24
    (1) R1, closed 11/1, int. req. 11/21
    (2) R1, closed 11/3, int. req. 11/22
    (3) SLAC, closed 11/10, int. req. 12/1
    (4) R1, closed 11/1, int. req. 12/7
    (5) R2-ish, closed 11/1, int. req. 12/7
    (6) Elite SLAC, closed 12/14, int. req. 12/21
    (7) Canadian R1, closed 10/15, int. req. 12/22
    (8) SLAC (perm., non-TT), closed 12/15, int. req. 2/3
    (9) SLAC, closed 12/1, int. req. 2/25
    2022-23
    (1) R1, due 11/1, int. req. 11/14
    (2) Elite SLAC, due 12/18, int. req. 1/4
    2021-22
    (1) R2-ish, due 11/1, int. req. 11/22
    (2) R1, due 11/1, int. req. 12/6
    (3) SLAC, due 12/3, int. req. 1/19

    Reply
  107. Inquiring Mind

    @seven-year itch That’s quite a marked improvement in interviews between ’22-’23 and ’23-’24. Were there any big changes that might have caused it? E.g., more pubs, taking up a postdoc, etc.? Also can I ask how many pubs you had during each cycle the market?

    Reply
  108. Other position

    Just to hear an alternative perspective- I prefer being ghosted to a PFO. If enough time passes I know I didn’t get an interview.i much preferred to let the fact I had applied fade from memory over confronting rejection head on without warning.
    The exception is when you did a fly out. It’s ridiculous not to get a “lovely to meet you but no” notice after we have met.

    Reply
  109. seven-year itch

    @Inquiring Mind, thanks, and yes, since you asked, the big change between my first five years on the job market and number six was that I hired Karen Kelsky to look at my materials before the start of year six. My (first-round) interview rate went from well below 10% to about 33%.
    I probably had five pubs in ’21-’22, seven in ’22-’23, and maybe nine in ’23-’24, or something like that. So the pub number steadily increased, but not drastically.

    Reply
  110. Inquiring Mind

    @seven-year itch Thanks for the insight!

    Reply
  111. hirer

    Hi! Just wanted to gently suggest that people who are ABD or have just received PhDs stop applying for senior/tenured jobs. This isn’t like applying for a job that is slightly outside your AOS or that you are a stretch fit for. A department is never going to hire someone who just got a PhD with tenure. And our universities wouldn’t let us hire an untenured person in a senior search.
    Also have been noticing less care with looking at what job ads actually say reflected in cover letters (and I’m not talking about things that are obviously just generic, which is fine, or mistakes like accidentally putting the wrong name of a school in, which is also fine–applying to jobs is stressful and there are a lot of them! I’m talking about stuff like literally changing a job title of a job from the ad (e.g. “I’m writing to apply for your assistant professor position at school X” for a job that is clearly advertised as for an associate professor, or applying to a permanent job but describing it as essentially a one year postdoc in one’s materials).
    I guess I might get piled on for being mean to job candidates here, but it’s honestly a huge waste of job candidates’ time to apply to senior jobs if they have, say, a PhD from 2024 and 2-3 publications. (It’s also a much more minor waste of a committee’s time, but that’s a smaller issue.) And in some cases with respect to the job we have now, it really looks like it’s just because the candidate didn’t even bother to really read the job ad, and so thinks it’s an assistant professorship or even a postdoc (?) or VAP (?). I think it will save job candidates a lot of time in the long run if they read job ads carefully and see what is actually worth them applying to. It will also save search committees a little bit of time. And I wouldn’t do this but I do worry slightly that search committee members might get annoyed by these kinds of mistakes and remember them if they encounter the candidate some other way–I think that is a very minor concern, but still one maybe worth taking seriously.

    Reply
  112. AnonPostdoc

    Following up on @hirer’s comment, which was really helpful. If one applies for an open rank position and currently works as a postdoc, is it OK to write in the cover letter “I am applying for the position of Assistant Professor, etc.”? I usually do that for the reasons mentioned in hirer’s post – I am aware that an untenured applicant would not be considered for a tenured position. But now I wonder if using that wording might give the idea that one has not read the ad carefully. Is it a legitimate doubt?

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  113. hirer

    @AnonPostdoc I think that is totally fine/the right thing to do! (It’s not at all what I had in mind.)

    Reply
  114. Cecil Burrow

    I agree that applying for senior jobs as a fresh graduate is a waste of time. From the hiring committee’s point of view, it is of course easy. Typically the first think we look at is the CV, and if the rank is wrong, the file is immediately discarded. The committee will spend 30 seconds with your dossier, and be happy that it can be discarded so that there is one less file to be considered. Do not be under any illusions that your dossier will be considered for more than 30 seconds in such a case.

    Reply
  115. AnonPostdoc

    Thanks, @hirer.

    Reply
  116. deadlines

    How are soft deadlines actually treated by hiring committees? If someone applies for a postdoc or a tenure track job after the deadline (e.g., between 2-7 days later), what are the chances that their application will be looked at at all?

    Reply
  117. mo data

    Adding some data points to @seven-year itch’s. Last year, I only applied to R1 schools. Here was the interview timeline.
    (1) Deadline 10/15. Zoom request 01/09.
    (2) Deadline 11/01. Zoom request 11/21.
    (3) Deadline 11/01. Zoom request 12/13.
    (4) Deadline 11/01. Zoom request 12/02.
    (5) Deadline 11/05. Zoom request 12/07.
    (6) Deadline 11/06. Zoom request 12/06.
    (7) Deadline 11/20. On campus request 01/24.
    So generally, looks like 4-5 weeks, with two outliers: one that took almost 3 months for the first stage, and one that skipped to flyouts.

    Reply
  118. Whoops

    Just saw in a comment on the reporting thread about job posting not asking for specific documents this year. I am had thought the same thing, but for a couple of jobs that I have applied for, certain things haven’t been directly asked for and it struck me as odd. The F&M job did not ask for a writing sample, the AI job at UNC did not ask for a research statement (only CV, writing sample, cover letter, teaching dossier). Should I have just sent the documents that weren’t asked for? Sincerely hoping I did not make the mistake here by not just sending them.

    Reply
  119. PassiveEvaluation

    Texas Austin is only requiring 2 writing samples, CV, teaching portfolio, and rec letters. No cover letter or research statement. Odd to me too. It looks like there is no place (probably except for the teaching statement in the portfolio) to indicate how one sees their work and wants to achieve. Does it mean these doesn’t matter or should one try to include them by other means?

    Reply
  120. Oh, so we go?

    Any insights as to what is going on in Oswego? They have been looking for an ethicist several times recently. Are they failing searches (but somehow getting to run them again)? Are people getting hired and leaving? Are these red flags or green flags?

    Reply
  121. Oswego you good?

    I don’t have any insider info on Oswego but to me it is definitely a red flag. I’ve applied each time they’ve had this ad the past couple of years, but I’m not sure I’ll even bother this time around. Something doesn’t seem to be working over there!

    Reply
  122. SkepticalAboutFancyJobs

    asking here not to clog the other thread: did everybody get their letters “pulled” for the Columbia position? Or is it the result of some actual screening?

    Reply
  123. Columbia letters

    @Skeptical, wasn’t the Columbia job app via Interfolio? Unless you’re using something other than Interfolio for letters, wouldn’t the letters already be automatically part of the application? That’s the boat most of us are in, I think, anyway.

    Reply
  124. speaking of repeated jobs

    Speaking of repeated jobs, anyone know what’s up with Ottawa? Their ancient/asian posting is a repeat.

    Reply
  125. ColumbiaInsider

    @Skeptical: For unknown reasons, the administration didn’t let us automatically request letters. It is now up to the chairs of the various subcommittees to request them and different chairs are taking different approaches. Some are requesting letters for most applicants while others are requesting letters for only a third. We are also working on different schedules, and I expect the requests to be spread out over the next three to four weeks. Sorry to introduce even more confusion into an already confusing process.

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  126. Skeptical

    @Columbia letters: no, because the app on interfolio did not have the letters slot, you were supposed to upload a file with contacts. See also ColumbiaInsider answer
    @ColumbiaInsider: fair enough, thank you!

    Reply
  127. US Ignoramus

    Looking At St Andrews postings. They don’t specify supporting documents (just CV, but there are spots for supporting documents). IS there a standard expectation of what those should be (I’m a US ignoramus about UK jobs), or do they just want a CV?

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  128. UK Grad Student

    @US Ignoramus, as per the “Further Particulars” document linked on the job advert, I believe that they’re also looking for a cover letter and two writing samples (evidence of teaching effectiveness optional).

    Reply
  129. job market novice

    Can someone tell me how they know if their documents have been pulled by a committee in Interfolio?

    Reply
  130. Missed “Full Consideration” Deadline

    Q: Is it a waste of time to apply for a job after the “deadline for full consideration” but still accepts applications until the position is filled?
    I came across a few job ads that are great fits, but there are so many more still to come that I don’t want to waste time on a lost cause when I could put energy into apps that will be given full consideration. Has anyone had a positive experience applying late anyway?
    Related Q: How do committees view these late submissions?
    In my view, the market season needs to stop clustering deadlines all on the same days, e.g., 10/31, 11/1, 11/15, 12/1, etc. Interfolio can’t even keep up! Are committees understanding about this, the possibility of finding a job ad just a little too late, or “life happens”-type considerations? (I assume it’s best not to give an explanation so as to not call further attention to the lateness of the submission…)
    Or, is it always best to keep working on the job ads coming up?

    Reply
  131. AlsoNovice

    @jobmarketnovice. if I understand your question correctly: if you give the interfolio email address for the letters, then interfolio sends you a notification when they are requested (via email) saying something like “We have received the letter request from University of X” and then proceeds with the delivery

    Reply
  132. SlightlyLessNovice

    @jobmarketnovice: Besides what AlsoNovice said, it can simply be the case that your references directly let you know that University X has requested a letter of recommendation for your application. So they keep you in the loop about this phase of the process.

    Reply
  133. 4th round on the market

    re job market novice
    Are you talking about the Columbia job? It is a submission from interfolio (and thus a free dossier on part of us, the applicants). I didn’t get any notification. So it’s possible that I have the exact same question.

    Reply
  134. overwhelmed with overwhelming

    Any advice on things easier on referees?
    I’ve heard the advice about a spreadsheet — I tried that, but was told it was more confusing than the straight word document (this may have been due to my missing some key element in the advice). I am not sure how search committees view letters sent indirectly via Interfolio dossier deliver, so I’d be interested in feedback on this, too.
    Separate, related question. A referee got in touch with me to ask whether they had submitted all of the reference letters. I can check on some, but not all. My impression is that this worry is a common source of anxiety for referees who want to help but are also very bogged down. Any recommendations about making this easier?

    Reply
  135. placement person

    @overwhelmed:
    please, please use interfolio!
    The advice on how to make things easier on referees is to use interfolio. With very very few exceptions (e.g. sometimes fellowships, society of fellows type programs or specific postdocs–all of which will make it explicit if they want a letter targeting the particular fellowship/project) everyone is EXPECTING letters to come from interfolio. There is absolutely no advantage to having a letter addressed to a particular place.
    I’m surprised your referees would agree to send letters to individual places at all. In case letter writers are reading this, I’d suggest you just refuse to do that (except in special cases, e.g. someone is just applying to two or three jobs total or something like that) to help make this a stronger norm, so that everyone’s work can be cut down on. (I’ve been doing placement for a long time and thought it was a universal norm but I guess not?)

    Reply
  136. H

    I’m confused by how much stock some people place in Interfolio and consider it mandatory.
    When I apply for jobs through Interfolio, I of course use my general letters that I ask my references to update every year. When I apply for jobs outside Interfolio, I put in my references’ email addresses because that’s what the application asks me to do. When I apply for jobs that ask for letters to be sent directly to an email address, I ask my references to email their letters. In short, I do exactly what the job posting asks me to do, and my references haven’t complained to me. (Maybe they’re all holding grudges, but I doubt it!) However, one accommodation I’ve made recently is to submit all my applications at least a week ahead of time so that my references have plenty of time to submit their letters before the deadline (if it requires manual work on their part), and I try to apply for several jobs at the same time to chunk the work for them.
    I don’t see any obligation to use a service for my reference letters (that costs me money!) simply to save tenured faculty a minute or two. I’m open to being corrected on this, but I don’t love the idea that we’re placing further obligations on job applicants to figure out the (opaque) Interfolio system when these expectations are not clear from anything in the job market itself. I made the call that Interfolio isn’t the right tool for me given my situation. Am I slowly making my references dislike me and undermining my job prospects, as @placement person implies?

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  137. Huh

    I straight up didn’t even really know it was POSSIBLE to send letters not through interfolio these days. (And the way to make it easier on referees is for sure to use it. They just send the letter once to the link and you can take charge of sending it wherever it needs to go. They don’t have to worry about it and you know that it was taken care of.)

    Reply
  138. placement person

    @H, would be interested to hear from others on this but I definitely refuse (and my colleagues refuse) to submit non-interfolio letters for those who are on the job market full-blown (if it’s someone applying to, say, 10 or fewer places, from a postdoc or a tt, I wouldn’t do this). However, my department does cover the costs of interfolio for first and second time job candidates.
    I do think there’s a pretty strong norm against not using interfolio so it is definitely possible that people are holding grudges against you, but I sort of doubt that. That being said I think interfolio is also much easier for the candidate–you don’t have to worry as much about missing letters, people not submitting things, etc. You also save yourself the time of communicating in the way overwhelmed describes with your letter writers.

    Reply
  139. columbia confusion

    Folks who got their letters pulled for Columbia: how did you/your recommenders actually go about sending your letters to them? My dept. admin says Columbia requested letters but did not provide a link to upload them, instead asking them to be “uploaded via Interfolio.” But the application on Interfolio still has no space to upload letters.
    Any insight @ColumbiaInsider?

    Reply
  140. overwhelmed with overwhelming

    @placement person, @Huh and @H: Thank you, that helps a lot. I wasn’t sure who to consult about the norms — I wasn’t sure if those on the receiving end looked differently upon letters provided through Interfolio dossier deliver. But what I’m hearing is that it’s widely accepted and that using it doesn’t scupper one’s chances — those were my main concerns. Anyway, thank you again!

    Reply
  141. oswegah

    Does anyone have the inside scoop on what’s going on with SUNY Oswego? This is like the third year in the a row they’ve posted for an ethicist… Are people getting hired and leaving, or does the search keep failing?

    Reply
  142. interfolio deliveries

    Re: overwhelmed with overwhelming
    If anything, I would gander that not using interfolio is looked down upon by committees because it is indicative of not understanding how this procedure works.

    Reply
  143. UF History of Modern Search

    Does anyone know what’s up with University of Florida’s history of modern search?
    This is the second year they’ve posted the same job ad. Are they fishing? Is it a funding-contingency issue or something else?
    If it was an open AOS/AOC (like USC’s annual post), it’s not clear why a department would fish for something more specific like history of modern two years straight. Any intel?

    Reply
  144. idk what I’m doing

    First time applicant here – if I am out of the running for a job, should I expect a PFO? Or, should I just assume I’m out of the running until I hear otherwise? Just not sure how to manage expectations!

    Reply
  145. UF maybe

    @UF I don’t have any inside info but my guess is their search just failed last year and they are redoing it. I wouldn’t read much into stuff like this unless it is a pattern (like USC) or a poorer school reposting the ad year after year (like Oswego). But maybe someone has some real info!

    Reply
  146. third time’s the charm (still don’t know what i’m doing)

    @idk what I’m doing —
    Don’t expect a PFO. Very few will send them when they extend first-round interview invitations. Very few will send them when they extend on-campus interview offers. A good number will send them once someone accepts the job offer. And some will never send them at all.
    From the discussion in this thread above, I’d say if you don’t hear anything 4-6 weeks after the deadline, assume you’re out.

    Reply
  147. UF

    UF hired a modernist last year. They’re on the faculty page. They’re hiring another.

    Reply
  148. Re: Oswego

    All, I think SUNY Oswego made their hire last year and is now running an ad to make another. Poking around on their faculty page and looking at CVs seems to confirm this. So I would be hesitant to follow the speculative narrative that has developed on this blog about that hire having something to do with last year’s hire and invoking red flags.

    Reply
  149. October 1

    News about TT – Open, School of Humanities, Nanyang Technological University Singapore & TT- Open, Bard, both due by October 1?

    Reply
  150. Madison

    @Going Mad-ison: replying here to keep this off the reporting thread. I applied for the junior job, but I had more than 3 references, and the add stated to send additional ones there. So, my letters were entered into the online system, and sent immediately, and then again last week, the other letters were entered and all were “pulled” again. In general, I don’t find discussion of letters being pulled very useful, but in this case, I think it can give people some sense that there is a history search happening and that the committee is looking at files still.

    Reply
  151. Bumping the question from @Missed “Full Consideration” Deadline

    There is a job that I somehow overlooked that had a Nov 1 ‘full consideration’ deadline. Would it be bad form to apply now? I wouldn’t want to annoy the members of the search committee or seem unorganized by applying so long after the deadline. I truly do not know how I missed it, and would appreciate any advice from others on this question!

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  152. logician

    @Bumping: if the job application is still open then it’s acceptable to apply for it, not “bad form” at all. You have no control over whether it annoys the members of the search committee or seems unorganised, but if they didn’t want more applications after the full consideration deadline then perhaps they should have had a hard deadline. File this one under “not my problem” and apply, obviously modulo considerations about whether it’s worth your time (because it may not receive full consideration etc.).

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  153. Deadline

    @bumping
    You have nothing to lose in applying but the time spent on the app.

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  154. Go for it

    @Bumping
    I did this within the past year and ended up getting an interview request, so it’s definitely worth submitting an application if you’re interested in the job! Not bad form at all.

    Reply
  155. job ad query

    What is “evidence of research productivity” in a job ad looking for? They also ask for a research statement and CV, so it isn’t either of those things. Is this just a different way of asking for a published writing sample?

    Reply
  156. ask

    @job ad query I would not risk it and ask them. It can mean a research statement, a writing sample, a published or forthcoming piece, a list of conferences attended/invited, etc.

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  157. Penn

    There is a UPenn PPE postdoc accepting applications on a “rolling basis” without a due date. What to expect in situation like this? How long should I wait to conclude that it isn’t going to happen?

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  158. Toronto M and E

    The M and E Position at Toronto seems to have disappeared from PhilJobs, and on Toronto’s own system it says “this position is no longer available”.
    The last communication I received from that dept after applying was that the deadline had been extended. Does anyone have insight on what might be going on here?

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  159. Hopesense

    How long after an application deadline does it make sense to keep hoping? 4 weeks? 8 weeks?

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  160. no point overthinking it

    @Hopesense per discussion earlier in this thread, it usually takes 4-6 weeks to hear back for first round interviews, with outliers on either side.

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  161. In the Canadian Market Too

    Like @Toronto M and E, I am also curious about what happened with the Metaphysics & Epistemology position at the University of Toronto. Does anyone have information about the status of the search or its cancellation?

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  162. TOinsider

    Toronto M&E is reviewing applications right now – they go right to on campus and won’t notify until mid/late december

    Reply
  163. courseload

    How can I find out what the teaching load is at a job if it isn’t listed in the advertisement? I can sometimes find this by looking at a class schedule to see how many courses are being taught by the same instructor in a given semester, but this isn’t reliable. Advice? I assume it would not be advantageous to email and ask.

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  164. here is a load

    courseload
    You can ask during the interview. If you ask before, and they have a heavier than usual teaching load, they will probably assume you think your too good for them. I assume if you heard it was a 4/4 you might not apply. A proxy for determining teaching load is to look athome much they publish. If they publish a lot (collectively), then they probably do not teach much … if they publish very little (collectively) they probably teach a lot.

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  165. please don’t be coy about course loads

    @courseload when a job ad doesn’t list the course load it is often (though not always) the case that it is a 4-4 or some other potentially “undesirable” load. I would definitely email them if you have course loads that you would not want to take on. As a side note, I cannot stand when job ads do not list the position’s course load, as it is a crucial component of whether or not many of us want to bother applying for your job! I have interviewed for positions only to find out they are a 4-4, which is not something I am interested in. I think committees are trying to put a more “flattering” picture out there by not listing course loads in these cases, but it ultimately ends up wasting more of everyone’s time. They’ll find out eventually during the interview etc.!

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  166. Michel

    Job ad query: My sense is that it’s not an extra document or anything. They just want your record and plans to reflect a solid, fruitful, and interesting trajectory. It’s a way of emphasizing that what matters is your research profile and trajectory, which depends on your publications, research statement, conference presentations, work in progress, etc.

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  167. course load

    @courseload: personally I wouldn’t reach out to inquire about the course load. I would wait to ask about this during the interview (if you get one). You can usually make a reasonable inference about course load on the basis of the type of job/institution if it’s not explicitly listed in the ad. Also worth asking about is the number of preps. A 4/4 with only two preps is a time suck but doable. A 4/4 with four preps means that research probably isn’t happening.

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  168. Wondering about the post-interview protocol

    Is it okay to email the chair of a search committee if, after say two and a half weeks following an interview, you have not heard back from them? Would it seem too desperate? Or should I just be patient and wait for them to contact me either with a flyout invitation or a PFO? (I guess that after more than two weeks, the likelihood of the latter is increasingly higher.)

    Reply
  169. should be fine

    @Wondering
    I think it’s fine — I’ve done so before — and I don’t think it sounds too desperate. E.g., folks who have multiple interviews and flyouts (perhaps this is you!) will also be tempted to reach out to search chairs if they have not heard back from them. Plus, every search operates on its own timeline, so expectations diverge. Plus, the philosophy job market is terrible for job seekers so search committees should understand.
    One reason not to reach out is if you’re worried that they won’t be able to tell you anything (because they’re constrained by HR or w/e) and then you put them in an awkward spot. Then again, it’s not so hard to ignore an email…

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  170. Patience is impossible

    @wondering – try not to make too many inferences at this point (I know- it’s impossible to avoid). When my dept last ran a search, the interviews were weeks apart, our dean insisted on being involved but dragged his feet at every stage. We had (unrelated) incidents on campus that postponed meetings etc. I wouldn’t reach out unless you have another offer and are making a choice between the two. And congrats on the interview!

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  171. The art of zen

    I agree with patience. Though it’s tempting, there is not much to be gained from reaching out and there is some small face to be lost. They will tell you when they have news they are allowed or want to communicate. Silence can indicate a range of possibilities including that they haven’t decided yet, they have but HR says they can’t communicate rejections until somebody else signs the contract, you are on a backup list but they don’t want you to know that you aren’t in the first bracket, there is some unexpected slowdown from a dean or absent faculty member, etc. Whatever their reasons for silence, they are unlikely to change in response to an email. I also agree that in my and my circles experience these things can take weeks or months to learn about for many institutional reasons.
    All this said it seems unlikely that a courteous email asking for news would do any real damage. The worst thing it seems it could do is license the inference that you have no other offers and are desperate for information, and even this does not seem very “damaging”. Of course, if you are able to communicate “I’m in demand and an update would be helpful” that is a different matter! Congratulations too on getting this far!

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  172. Wondering about the post-interview protocol

    @should be fine @Patience is impossible @The art of zen: Thank you so much for your kind comments and insights! I have decided that I will be patient, as there seems to be no real gain in doing otherwise, and I don’t have any other interviews scheduled at the moment. Thank you once again!

    Reply
  173. Ethics of Disclosure

    Do folks have any advice on how to navigate disclosing one’s dyslexia on the job market especially as it relates to postdoc positions where the postdoc involves co-authorship?

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  174. confusedasusual

    Does anyone know what they mean by ‘the usual documents’ in the practical and theoretical philosophy postdoc ads from the University of Erlangen-Nürnberg (posted on Philos-L)?

    Reply
  175. Just ghost me please

    Are PFOs getting too creative? “I am very sorry to have to tell you that we were not able to include you on our shortlist. You have the privilege, which is also the misfortune, of being part of an exceptionally strong and vital field.”

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  176. inDE

    @confusedasusual: the usual docs in germany are (1) cover letter/Anschreiben to be written in German if you’re claiming to speak it, (2) CV including publications and courses you’ve taught, and (3) diplomas and certificates including PhD if available / transcript if not and BA/MA. The usual docs don’t include references, writing samples, teaching portfolios, or the like.

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  177. bioethics

    anyone also experiencing unusual problems submitting the Interfolio application for the Johns Hopkins Berman Institute of Bioethics postdoc?

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  178. confusedasusual

    @inDE thanks!

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  179. 1st time applicant

    @bioethics I have been having trouble with interfolio submissions generally. I have found that deleting and then reuploading documents one at a time often gets the issue fixed, I’m not sure why. But sometimes interfolio will say something is wrong or missing even though everything is there.

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  180. Curious

    Is it just me or has December been a really slow month for news? Usually the week after Thanksgiving is super active.

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  181. the darn youth these days

    @Curious I’ve had the same thought. One thing I’ve noticed in my own department(s) among younger/ABD candidates lately is that they seem to be a bit less likely to post on here than would’ve been the norm 2-3+ years ago. Since ABDs tend to be in relatively high demand (for various reasons that’ve been hashed out on here many a time), it could be that the interviews people are querying about have indeed been scheduled but that too many of the relevant people aren’t on here.

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  182. ABD demand

    @the darn youth these days: wait, I was told that ABDs were disadvantaged because they weren’t finished and competing against others that are finished. Are ABDs actually in high demand? Why?

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  183. Yet another millenial

    @tdytd: Where are the grad students posting, another website? Or are they just keeping the news to themselves?

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  184. TDYTD

    @another millenial they seem to be keeping it to themselves, unfortunately. At least that’s what I’ve anecdotally observed. If there’s another website they haven’t filled me in!
    @ABD demand this has been discussed on here various times in the past, but, briefly, being ABD looks very good for certain types of departments because you’re “bright and shiny” and seen as more “malleable” (just look at one of the comments on the “tips for going on the market as an assoc prof” thread!). This is even more true depending on your personal demographics and the type of PhD program you’re coming from.

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  185. PhD-in-hand

    @ABD demand, I’ve also been told that being ABD is largely a disadvantage. In fact, I have a friend currently serving on a search committee, and they tossed out most of the ABD applications just as a quick way of narrowing down hundreds of applications. I suspect this might depend upon the sort of departments you are applying to, though. An R1 might be more eager to hire a well-published top-ten ABD candidate, but I think SLACS are going to want people with more teaching and on-the-ground experience.

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  186. mossy

    The consensus, more or less, from here and elsewhere that I’ve seen is the following:
    (1) For R1s and other prestige institutions, the fresh ABD from a top program is very attractive. For such a candidate, even publications might not matter. I have seen a not insignificant amount of prestige ABDs get hired with 0-2 publications.
    (2) For smaller, less prestigious schools that prioritize teaching experience, ABD applications may very well get thrown out in favor of those with more experience.
    Search this website for the Hypothesis for more detail.

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  187. anmipo

    how long does it usually take to hear back after first round interviews? thanks!

    Reply
  188. philovoyeur

    Mossy, I’ve never understood that – why someone who is ABD with no publications or even teaching experience would be attractive to an RI/prestige institution. Such hires always seem morally dubious to me. Just seems like the only thing that could explain such a hire is academic style advisor/program-nepotism or some form of elitism on the part of the hiring committee. It’s certainly not a decision that’s made based on any real track-record of demonstrated teaching/research excellence. Makes me question how much philosophy hiring is actually meritocratic – as opposed to merely based on if the candidate is “part of the club”

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  189. estimate

    One to two weeks. Never more than two weeks.

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  190. timelines after first round

    There’s a lot of variability – sorry, I know that’s probably not too helpful.
    One factor is how early you were in the list, and whether they scheduled their list in a more compressed and expanded way.
    Another factor is whether right as soon as the interviews are done, how long it takes to get the committee together to make a choice.
    Then there’s the question of whether this institution lets the committee make that choice and start emailing fly out offers with little or no oversight, or whether they have to write up some report of their ranking of the candidates and send it off to some higher-up for approval/edits.
    And then there’s the question of whether that higher-up is interseted in moving the search along or whether the report languishes on their desk for a while, etc.

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  191. Lady Detective

    @ Ethics of Disclosure A family member is an employment lawyer, and I asked her. She said there is no legal requirement to disclose your dyslexia unless they state you are required to answer yes or no (usually, there is also a”choose not to disclose option.”).
    She advises you to read any paperwork during the application and hiring process very closely and answer any questions that require you to disclose your dyslexia (which is treated as a “disability”) honestly.
    Regarding ethics, she does not think there is anything unethical about not disclosing during the application or hiring process. But for instance, if you get a postdoc, you should let them know before you agree to work with co-authors.
    And if your dyslexia means you cannot come up for tenure in the usual time, that is something you should talk about with our tenure committee at the time.
    If you need accommodation, you must ask for it as the need arises rather than after the fact. And the ADA requires them to give it to you.
    Good luck!

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  192. nepo bABDy

    @philovoyeur I share similar intuitions. Notice that these ABD hires are usually between Ivys (Princeton gets a Harvard, Penn gets a Yale, etc)

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  193. philovoyeur

    @nepo bABDy, yep, I’ve noticed that. It definitely makes me side-eye the faculty/programs that hired those candidates. In many cases it just looks like blatant perpetuation of elitism/the class system.

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  194. concerns123

    @philovoyeur and @nepo bABDy on top of that I have also noticed that several departments (at least in my field I have seen this in three hires) hire insider candidates, either someone who was already in that department somehow (e.g. as a postdoc) or someone who is part of a research group with other members of the department (grads or faculty that are friends/members of the same groups). This sends the wrong signal to others applying, imho, and is super discouraging… Especially when there is apparently no concern about gender equity either.

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  195. Sometimes its just for fulfilling legal requirements

    Sometimes some departments just want to hire one of their own. But they are legally required to make an international search to tick all the boxes. In such cases, they are just wasting the time of all other applicants. But they can get away with it so easily. It’s such things that make me feel guilty when encouraging my students to apply for a PhD.

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  196. an experienced cynic

    @philvoyeur If you’re only “questioning” whether philosophy hiring is actually meritocratic, then I suspect you have not been on the job market very long…

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  197. etiquette?

    After you do a zoom interview, do you email saying thank you for taking the time to speak with me? If so, how long do you wait? Or do you just wait to hear back about a fly out and not email?

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  198. I’ve tried to think about it a lot

    I am less cynical (though not entirely uncynical) about the “shiny abd from fancy place” or the “elite hiring elite phonemona” than some of the comments here:
    My sense is that:
    a) a publication or two at a top journal while still a grad student is very impressive. It is hard to hit the ground running like that. Its pretty strong evidence you are going to keep doing that. Of course, grad students at elite places have all kins of advantages that helped them get to the place of being able to do that. Its not a fair playing field. Nonetheless, it is evidence that they ARE there, and that is what departments are looking for.
    b) The writing samples of junior people with fewer publications are read more carefully if they seem really promising, so such patterns of hiring are in part a bet, based on the confidence of the committee members that they are personally well able to assess whether that work will go on to be excellent. Top departments (for good or bad) are likely to feel more confident in their own assessment rather than feeling like they have to wait to hear what journals say.
    c) Top departments care a bit less about teaching– but i think also tend to be staffed by people who have high levels of doubt about our ability to use teaching portfolios as meaningful assessments of teaching quality. They also recognize they have a reasonable teaching schedule and likely think that most people who are not terrible horrible teachers can handle the amount of pressure that the required teaching will put on a candidate.
    d) I don’t think the advantage is that departments think “Oh this person is from Yale/Harvard whatever, I’ll just hire them or give them an edge.” If elite bias gets in (and I’m sure it does), a lot of it is that letters of recommendation will come from people who trained people that the committee members knows and they will be able to say things like “of the 43 graduate students I have trained several of whom like x,y,z are now tenured at b,q,k, place and whom you think highly of, this person is in the top 3” or whatever– and that level of concrete detail is credible (whether or not it is true).
    Thats all to say I think the situation is more complicated than some of the responses to “mossy” suggest and therefore more difficult to address head on.

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  199. anon hiring committee member

    I just want to second lots of what “I’ve tried to think about it a lot” says. Yes, there is elite bias. It is everywhere. But things don’t work in the “I’ll scratch your back you scratch mine” way described above. For example, I was hired into my job as an assistant professor with zero publications from a leiter top 5 school. But no one in my department is particularly close, professionally or personally, to anyone at the place I got my Phd, and certainly not to any of my letter writers (most of my colleagues have never even met my letter writers).
    I think that a lot of what is happening is just that people in departments with fancy PhD programs and fancy faculty think: we, combined with the letter writers who have worked with them over the years, are at least as good judges about the quality and potential future impact of someone’s work as journal editors and referees are. Often they think: we are significantly better judges of that. Or, a less obnoxious version of this: we are a better judge of what WE think is philosophically good and good quality, and that is what we are interested in hiring, even if we don’t think we’re communing with the platonic form of what a good philosopher is when we make our judgments.
    I think all sorts of bias gets into these kinds of judgments, and there is plenty to be critical of, but if you think faculty at these places aren’t very carefully reading the work of anyone they are even just long listing, you’re probably wrong. Certainly by the first round interview stage, faculty are very closely reading work and thinking about the philosophy itself, not the cv or how many publications the person has.
    For what it’s worth, while I think the ways that this allows for elite bias to creep in are bad, I also disagree with the idea that it’s better to count publications, or just hire based on number or prestige of publications plus something about teaching experience. I think it’s actually good for faculty to exercise their own judgment about philosophical quality and, perhaps more importantly, what interests us. In my department a lot of people with many publications don’t get much of a second look because their work seems boring, derivative, or something like that to us. That doesn’t mean some other department won’t like it, or shouldn’t like it. But I guess I think that while all the ways for elite bias to creep in are bad, so, very much, is just CV bean counting. There has to be some judgment about the work itself, whether we like it, whether we think it is interesting, promising, etc. And I think it would be a better world if faculty did this but with more of a check-our-own-bias attitude/attentiveness to bias, than a world in which research-focused jobs were doled out based on number of publications or fanciness of publications or anything like that.

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  200. an experienced cynic

    To be clear, my cynicism wasn’t directed explicitly towards ABD hiring and/or hiring at prestigious departments, but a reflection on the general hiring procedure, which is anything but meritocratic. Since this site is anonymous I’ll just speak my mind.
    a: DEI initiatives are, for the most part, actively making the process non-meritocratic. Anyone who has ever sat on a hiring committee knows this. Of course some people defend this practice as a justifiable corrective to achieve a better society, but the point still stands that this is not meritocratic.
    b: Within philosophy departments in the US there is a strong bias towards PhDs from prestigious US departments, which as far I can tell is not grounded in evidence but merely offers a simple heuristic to deal with the time-consuming hiring process: they know those departments and the supervisors, and there are plenty of candidates from just that pool already, so why spend time looking at anyone else, let alone take any risks, when there are plenty of safe bets? It is my impression that there are far fewer academics with non-US PhDs in US philosophy departments than there are in many other fields.
    c: Furthermore, the best European candidates are those with little teaching experience, for they are the candidates who have been successful in applying for prestigious grants, first as PhDs and then as postdocs, and those require very limited teaching. It is understandable that teaching-heavy and non-prestigious US departments prefer to hire someone who has already acquired teaching experience, but this should be of less concern to prestigious departments, who are able to invest resources in developing teaching skills. So this is also non-meritocratic, for it punishes excellent non-US based researchers (unless one believes that their research excellence provides evidence of their inability to ever become good and willing teachers).
    d: US departments care far more about letters than do European departments (who often don’t even request letters until the very final stage), and as a result US letter writers tend to write significantly more positive letters, putting anyone without such letter writers at a disadvantage when applying on the US market (which is by far the biggest).
    e: I completely understand that departments take into account signs of someone’s potential future impact as opposed to mere bean counting, but that factor alone cannot explain the many occasions on which a fresh PhD was chosen with just a single publication over several candidates who have already proven that they can produce several high-quality publications a year, over the course of several years, and whose profiles are excellent in all other respects as well. And yet these kinds of cases are far from exceptions.
    f: There were some comments about non-philosophy PhDs not standing a chance at philosophy departments. Again, this is not meritocratic. Philosophy is the interdisciplinary field par excellence, and especially positions directed at particular domains that involve another discipline could benefit from taking a less conservative approach in classifying people’s research identity. There are plenty of debates that intersect significantly with philosophy that have migrated to a large extent to other disciplines, and if philosophy departments want to avoid becoming irrelevant ivory towers they would do well to welcome more interaction with other disciplines. (I should say though that a lack of interdisciplinarity is a gigantic blind spot across academia, this is not unique to philosophy, but is instead a non-intended result of the arcane institutional academic infrastructure.)
    Those are just my two cents, which are undoubtedly partly reflective of my frustration at failing to be successful on the philosophy job market, but I suspect that many can relate to at least some of these comments.

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  201. anon hiring committee member

    I can only speak for myself (and a little bit for my colleagues, though I think they vary–but some of them just bean count), but I don’t think this is unusual: I work at an R1 with a PhD program and I do not take the shortcut you described in reviewing applications. We typically divide apps into sections where two people are initially screening each one, and then make a long list from that. While it is true that I do not read every writing sample in my section, I do typically skim every one (except for applications that are clearly nonstarters, e.g. not in the AOS, etc.) and at least read the first couple pages, and it is also not true that the way I decide to read more carefully has anything to do with who wrote someone’s letters (which I look at last, if at all, in the initial screening–they usually come into play later) or what school they got their PhD from. Instead, I typically first look at their research statement and dissertation summary, then skim or read (depending on how much it interests me) their writing sample. In long listing, I make sure I have read the writing samples carefully of any candidate I would propose, and I read all the writing samples of all the other long listed candidates before thinking about how to short list for the first round interview stage.
    I don’t think this is uncommon. It may well be that some faculty are taking the shortcuts described above. But I think the prevalence of that tends to be overstated by job candidates. We do a lot of work, and many of us are very responsible about that work. I definitely have colleagues who either just look at CVs or clearly have weird and random (not typically elite-driven though) processes about what they fixate on, but honestly those colleagues tend to get less of a say, since they often can’t actually produce reasons, in conversation, that their candidates are superior to the ones the rest of us have spent so much time on. If I had to make an educated guess–and I have a lot of friends who teach at R1s–I would guess that some version of the above is roughly true at most places, and that it is quite uncommon to just toss an application in the trash without giving it a pretty decent look unless it is far outside the search boundaries or just very obviously amateurish or incompetent in glaring ways.
    I disagree with some of “an experienced cynic”‘s comments, but I do think some of them are correct (I suspect there is bias against European PhDs on the US job market for the reasons they point out–though I think most R1s care more about teaching than they seem to think–and I think the process was decidedly not meritocratic ever, so I don’t agree that DEI is somehow screwing something up that was ever there to begin with; my experience interviewing non-philosophy PhDs is that they have never once seemed philosophical to me, but maybe that varies (so I think there should be a pretty high bar, honestly); etc.).
    But I very strongly disagree that (b) is what is happening. Again, elitist bias DOES creep in. But no one, or almost no one, at a departmental level where individual stuff tends to get corrected for, is using “did this person get their PhD at a top 10 or top 20 department” or “do we know a lot about this person’s letter writers” as a way to do a first cut of applications. I feel certain that if that happens, it is rare. So that is not the heuristic that is introducing bias.

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  202. Not cynical

    I actually had a recent argument with a friend over this “meritocracy” issue. Which was the only argument we have ever had. My friend was saying something along the lines of cynic and i was saying things along the lines of anon hiring. And we couldn’t convince each other at all. My personal experience with our searches has been that it is strongly merit based, rather than about status etc. The results are not perfect, of course, and mistakes made all the time. But still I think the process is way more meritocratic than many job candidates believe. that being said, I do empathize with the other side. When I was on the job market, I also thought guys who attend prestigious universities would be favored over me. I think this actually revealed my own implcit bias in favor of status back then. (For example, I implicitly thought they were admitted to those fancy grad programs which rejected me, and then they further received better pedagogy. So why don’t we believe they are better than me? ) However, after three years of search experience, I no longer believe that status etc plays a very big role in general, and the process is pretty fair. Though at times arbitrary.

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  203. JobMarketHasMeScared

    So I’m not sure where to ask this, but does anyone know of philosophers still breaking into tech? The entry-level market in tech just seems miserable, I’m not sure whether that’s still a viable plan B in the immediate (or foreseeable) future. I’m not even sure what other plan Bs are available to me without getting another degree at this point.
    The academic job market has not been kind to me so far, so I’m pretty scared if there’s no viable exit options.

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  204. Not happy about how it often goes, but made less cynical by experience

    Yes- I think what makes cynicism feel warranted is that so many great people DON’T get jobs– and of course, all of us know some person who got a great job that we think isn’t as good as some other person that we know that doesn’t have a great job or a job at all. But the former is the product of the fact there just aren’t enough jobs. And the latter is often a product of either different tastes or different private information (you have had late night conversations with x and know they are brilliant and creative, but you don’t know that their research statement is all over the map or they panic when nervous and give an incredibly convoluted job talk, or just that somebody else had a beautiful writing sample.)
    “Merit” may not be exactly the word. It isn’t true that everyone who gets a job is the best or that everyone who fails was worse. But I do find in my experience of being on search committees at R1s, that what people are trying to track really is what people would think is the right stuff to pay attention to. Most people I know start by reading the research statement and the writing sample. Most conversations are about the writing sample. People pay attention to whether people have a number of publications that befit the length of time they have been in the field and the circumstances that they have been in, and make an assessment of the quality of those publications—often one that is independent of the journal. I’ve never heard anyone comment on the school where someone got their PhD or the name of the letter writer (or really talk that much about letters except in cases where there is something extremely unusual).
    The process has every deliberative challenge that you can imagine– its possible for twists of decision-making and discussion to mean that the group ends up with a candidate that nobody thought was the best one. And it goes wrong in all kinds of ways. And I’m sure biases of all kinds are rampant. But in my experience it really doesn’t track the straightforward elite signals that people worry it does.
    (I can’t speak to the European issues the earlier commentator mentioned, but I have had American friends try to get jobs in Europe and struggle, so it may be a universal thing that there are cultural challenges that are hard to bridge in the academic environments.)

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  205. on the tt

    Maybe this is naive, but it’s often seemed to me that people/departments might just disagree about which kind of merit should be ocracied. Or, perhaps not disagree, even, so much as find one or another more relevant to the job they are trying to fill.

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  206. Anony

    Re: The meritocracy discussion.
    For those who argue that the process is merit-based, you probably have to then conclude that those who graduate from elite institutions are generally actually the best candidates (given the studies that have shown how students from elite institutions do way better on the job market, especially at other elite institutions).
    Maybe this is true. I am not sure. But if you want to argue that the job market is mostly merit-based, then this seems like a conclusion that you have to accept.

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  207. Columbia Outsider

    @Columbiainsider An applicant reported an interview request from Columbia for the open position, and someone else was asking whether any insiders can tell us if all interviews have been requested or not, since you had mentioned that letters were being pulled at different times. Can you advise?

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  208. ColumbiaInsider

    Columbia has scheduled all of its interviews. So has Barnard. Sorry.

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  209. Confused

    Did Loyola Marymount advertise a TT position in Ancient Greek Philosophy? I have just received a PFO for that position, but I thought I applied for a position in philosophy of mind (I think I got confused in the application process).

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  210. Nova question

    If any one who received a zoom interview request from Villanova pops in here, would you mind sharing which area/figures within 19th century philosophy you work in & whether or not your graduate program is (loosely) continental or analytic? [Mostly trying to figure out (a) if they just wanted Hegel/German Idealism and (b) if they just wanted SPEP continental as opposed to Leiter continental.]

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  211. not cynical

    @Anony
    I do believe that the job market decision making is mostly merit-based and fit-based (or at least in the processes that I have witnessed), but I do not believe that “those who graduate from elite institutions are generally actually the best candidates”. Yes, there are some really great candidates from elite institutions, but also those institutions generally better help their students better present the merits and fit (like useful test prep places).
    Anyways, my point is absolutely not that if you didn’t get a job, you are worse than other people who did. My point is that if you do very good work but not at elite institutions, you should not feel insecure or cynical.
    I know I did, and sometimes it can be smelled and be held against you. I was lucky. I remember there was one time, I casually commented that my intuition is not so fancy and my new colleagues told me that someone (who I actually know, like a star student at a star institute) also applied for the job and was charming and they loved him, but they just didn’t think his work is as good as mine. This actually happened more than once during my own job hunting. (Sorry if this comes across as bragging!) Then in my hiring experience, again I haven’t found status of institutions per se played much role in the final deliberations, either explicitly or implicitly (which I know is hard to convince people about, but).

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  212. numbers

    @not cynical If you think the market is largely merit based, you cannot also say that you don’t believe that people from elite institutions, on average, are the ones with the most merit. See, eg, the APDA graphs that demonstrate the different streams of job placement statistics among graduates from different sorts of PhD-granting institutions. It is just numerically the case that those graduating from top programs are much, much more likely to land a TT job than those from middle of the pack and especially lower prestige places. You can’t be so non-cynical that you ignore the actual statistics we have had on this for many years at this point! The fact that you were lucky does not disprove the stats.

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  213. chippy

    Just wanted to once again plug this article on prestige bias in philosophy by Helen De Cruz: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/ergo/12405314.0005.010/–prestige-bias-an-obstacle-to-a-just-academic-philosophy?rgn=main;view=fulltext
    You will find data on the effect of PhD prestige on hiring in philosophy there.

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  214. Stoned out of my Brook

    following up with ‘Nova question’: anyone get a zoom interview from Stony Brook that works in an ‘analytic’ department? and whether your interests are in Kant, Hegel, or german idealism broadly construed (curious)

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  215. The Atlantic is Vast

    Question: I’m a finalist for a U.K. job, and from what I read they seem to have strict guidelines concerning, if I were to be offered a job, how long I can wait before I must answer. Does anyone have any insight as to how long this period is? I understand it’s usually set by the universities but any insight on this issue would be helpful (if only because US jobs operate on different timelines and I am also in the running for those too). Thank you in advance.

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  216. Want to know too

    @Atlantic I have not found a good answer to that question in the U.S. job market, to be honest. They give you two to three weeks to decide; you can perhaps ask for one or two more, but some jobs will not grant any extensions. I don’t think there is a fixed rule?

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  217. Holding my breath

    I forgot how excruciating it is to wait for news that may never come.

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  218. IFindThisThreadUnbelievablyDepressing

    I cannot believe I have to say this to a bunch of philosophers but: you are not the best judge of your own biases. That’s the whole point of hundreds and hundreds of pages on implicit bias and its repercussions.
    The effects of elite bias in hiring decisions are everywhere and very obvious– see @numbers and @chippy.
    That some people on hiring committees do not feel they are being biased is, obviously, not good evidence for anything – if not, perhaps, that there is really no hope for a better academia.

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  219. I think its complicated

    The challenge is (as it often is) the complexity of interpreting the data. Yes, the data shows that people from elite schools are much more likely to get jobs.
    Does that show that there is straightforward elite bias? No. It shows that SOMETHING is happening that makes candidates from those institutions more likely to get jobs.
    One answer- the one suggested by “numbers” is that the alternative is to explain the data with the claim that the people accepted into or graduated from elite institutions are just innately better at philosophy. A lot of people find that uncomfortable, and probably improbable.
    But there are other explanations. I take it the one hinted at by some of the people above is that people who graduate from elite institutions are often better prepared to do academic philosophy as a profession. That is not the same thing as saying they are smarter or have more brilliant ideas. But it means suggesting that they are, at the moment of hiring, better able to do the work of writing and publishing articles and getting into conferences and so on that advance a field or at least that is measured in professional calculations by things like tenure committees.
    There are lots of reasons this could be so that don’t look like “someone looked at the name of the institution on the letterhead for your CV.”
    Students from elite institutions often do less high volume of teaching as grad students. They may have had more time to practice their writing.
    Elite institutions often bring in more scholars to present works in progress or just hang out. Candidates may have imbibed a better sense of where certain fields are at right now in their discussions and thus be writing/making moves in those areas in a way that is more caught up. Or they may get a chance to test their ideas out more with others across the field and get more feedback.
    Elite institutions often have more resources to send students to conferences and workshops and thus may give students more of a chance to see how other people do philosophy, and to practice what it looks like to right a compelling abstract and suchlike.
    Elite institutions often have faculty who publish in top journals and can thus help guide students in how to polish an article for such a journal/how to select a journal/how to respond to reviewer comments and suchlike.
    Elite institutions often have more resources such that fewer demands are made on faculty as a general matter. This means they may have more time to advise, to help students with dissertations and articles and suchlike.
    Are these things fair? Absolutely not. There are lots of reasons to worries about the inequality they perpetuate and create.
    But they are not the same thing as “they looked at the letterhead and tossed an application.” They may well look like “they looked at the candidate’s materials and seriously considered the person’s work.”
    (and of course, BOTH are probably operative to some degree-in part the question is, what degree?)
    Does the difference matter? I think it does– and not just because it helps people on committees feel better about themselves. It also matters because a) it can help us think about how to combat those inequalities better as a profession (and notice– search committees are a weird space to focus in the first place–it could genuinely be that they are not being that biased, but all the things that went onto peoples CVs in less controlled situations reflected the kind of biases that concern you) and b) it does open up the possibility (which is not available on the toss the letterhead theory) that a person who does excellent work despite facing these unfair differences CAN get hired, and hired because of the quality of their work.
    I guess my question to “IFindThisThreadUnbelievablyDepressing” is– given the inequalities I have described, what is the hiring distribution that you would expect to see? And what exactly do you think hiring committees should be doing to not be biased in the way you take yourself to be describing if it is not “Looking only at the writing sample, the research statement, and the list of publications” as some earlier commentators seemed to describe doing? I’m genuinely interested in what guidance you would offer? What at that stage would count as evidence of non-bias or as efforts not to be biased?

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  220. bias

    @I think it’s complicated
    I may be wrong, but I think @Ifindthisthread is talking about the general evidence on prestige bias, such as the halo effect. I’m not expert, but if such a bias exists, I truly doubt that philosophy hiring is immune from it. I take that to be their point. Of course, identifying individual cases of such bias is near impossible, but we all know cases of people from lesser-or-non-ranked programs with tons of wonderful pubs (the kinds of things relevant to professional philosophy) and no permanent job. But it’s hard to find such cases for top-10 graduates.

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  221. numbers again

    Just to be clear, I wasn’t the one who was suggesting that people from top programs have more merit. I was pointing out that @non-cynical couldn’t endorse both of those two (contradictory) claims.

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  222. Mississippi

    Anyone heard anything from the Mississippi State University AOS:Open position?

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  223. anon hiring committee member

    I hope it’s clear that I (anon hiring committee member) think there is elite bias on the job market. I just also think the story of it being baked in to hiring committee procedures (for example through a first pass cut that weeds out non-elite PhDs, or really any other method) is not how it happens in practice, or, if it does, it’s rare. I think this stuff is much more implicit and non-conscious. Also, to be clear, I don’t think that makes it better. However, it also doesn’t make me think bean counting is a good way of hiring, so the challenge is for search committees to actually do the work to challenge and try to undermine their own biases. I doubt most of them are doing that. I like UCLA’s practice of requiring anonymized materials, though it places an annoying burden on candidates. I think a good hiring practice for an R1 would be to read only anonymized writing samples and research statements, at least at the longlisting stage. But I’m not sure how realistic it would be to get people to do that.

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  224. Success correlates with success

    I’m honestly baffled by skepticism that the top candidates will tend to be from the top programs. (Obviously there are exceptions, but that’s no reason to deny the correlation.) How do you think they got into those programs in the first place? A lottery?
    Grad school applications are a competitive process. Job applications are a similar competitive process, assessed by the very same people. Obviously success at one is going to correlate with success at the other. If philosophers are any good at detecting philosophical ability, this is precisely the result one would expect. When people like De Cruz note the correlation and conclude that this is evidence of “prestige bias”, I wonder what they think consistent meritocracy would look like.

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  225. Bias

    @success
    I think you’re strawmanning. It’s compatible with there being such a correlation that there is also a bias in favor of prestige. I’m from a mid-ranked program. On average, I tend to find students and graduates from highly ranked programs to be more impressive. But that’s neither here nor there when it comes to the question of bias.

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  226. confused

    Hi! this is my first time on the market. I just received this email, can anyone help me figure out what it means? Have they sent this to all applicants?
    “Thank you for your interest in our position in Philosophy at the University of Florida. We are reviewing your application with interest and look forward to spending more time with the materials you have prepared for us.
    Review of applications is ongoing. I will let you know when anything interesting happens!
    Sincerely,”

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  227. WoohootButAlsoSadDays

    I think this was asked some time ago, but I’m wondering if things have changed.
    I just heard that my paper was accepted in a very top journal. It’s my best publication so far, but I have 6 or 7 other papers already out.
    I imagine most jobs have already moved to interviews or even fly outs. Is it too late to update the committees about this? Would it make a (positive or negative) difference?

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  228. M

    @confused It means “wait.”

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  229. A fly-out for Christmas

    This is my first time on the job market. Zoom interviews for a position ended two weeks ago today. If I don’t hear anything today about the next round before the holidays, should I make any assumptions? I forgot to ask about a timeline at the end of my interview.

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  230. More jobs?

    This is my first time on the job market and I’m wondering whether there are other post-docs and/or lecturer positions that become available during the winter or is this basically it for jobs for this cycle?

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  231. Marcus Arvan

    &More jobs?: more jobs will continue to be posted well into spring or even summer—though just how many is anybody’s guess. Anyway, I know people who obtained lecturer or VAP positions as late as July.

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  232. anon

    I apologize if this has been discussed before — I had an interview with a school a month ago and have not heard anything from them since then (not even a rejection email). Should I contact the Chair? (or should I assume that it is a rejection…?)

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  233. m

    @anon Honestly, I would do both. If you have a CV update, you can lead the inquiry with that piece of news. If not, politely ask for any updates and remind them how excited you are about the position.

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  234. too early career in my career, apparently

    Was I wrong to be misled by this fellowship advertisement?
    I applied this October for a fellowship at the National Humanities Center called the Philip L. Quinn Fellowship, which is advertised:
    “The National Humanities Center invites fellowship applications from humanities scholars at every stage of their professional careers. We are particularly pleased to be able to support the work of early-career, female philosophers through a fellowship created by the estate of Notre Dame University philosopher Philip L. Quinn.”
    This is the only statement of eligibility guidelines available online. I checked VERY thoroughly, for another reason, prior to submitting.
    (The application requires a project proposal, project outline, and bibliography, in addition to other standard materials.)
    I was just informed by the center that my application is not eligible because I have not yet received my PhD (I am ABD, expecting to defend in the Spring, prior to when the Fellowship would begin).
    I did not infer from the ad’s language that I was not eligible, and spent weeks preparing my application, which I believe was competitive. Was this my error or the NHC’s?
    My sense is that the norm for other philosophy fellowships is that ABDs are eligible for fellowships on the merit of their materials. I would expect that if the NHC is going to depart from this norm they are obligated to say so explicitly to potential applicants.
    If others agree that the error was not mine, do readers have any recommendations for how I could effectively address this with the NHC? I would hope both to spare others the trouble of applying for this who are not eligible, and hopeful that, if it is their error, that they would correct the mistake by giving my application due consideration.
    (I have obviously considered writing an email, but I would be surprised if this would be sufficiently forceful to have the hoped-for effects.)

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  235. fineprint

    @too early career in my career, apparently The ad, if I found the right one, says “Fellowship applicants must have a PhD or equivalent scholarly credentials” (https://philjobs.org/job/show/26734), which suggests they want it in hand. Usually, jobs open to ABD say in the ad “PhD by time of the appointment.”

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  236. FAQs are helpful

    I take ‘early-career’ to mean post-PhD unless otherwise specified, but I agree the term by itself is imprecise. The FAQ page specifies explicitly that applicants for the residential fellowship must have their doctorate or other equivalent degree:
    https://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/scholarly-programs/faqs/
    Hopefully the application materials can be repurposed for other fellowships!

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  237. mossy

    @too early career The NHC fellowships are basically faculty fellowships from my understanding. In other words, they are meant to support people already established in positions. It is confusing that there are a number of fellowships out there for established scholars and TT faculty that are not always very clear and upfront about this fact without digging into their websites.
    I’m not sure where you saw this position advertised but the NHC official website does state that “Applicants must have a doctorate or equivalent scholarly credentials. Mid-career and senior scholars are encouraged to apply. Emerging scholars with a strong record of peer-reviewed work may also apply.”

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  238. former fellow

    @too early, sorry that happened to you! I think the error was a combination of “they should be clearer” and you. E.g. on this page they clearly state that fellows must have a doctorate:
    https://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/scholarly-programs/
    I think they don’t have the application portal up, but my memory was that this is clear in various places (e.g. it’s repeated in the “FAQ” part of their site). That being said, what they need to make clearer is that the Quinn fellowship is just one of the fellowships that is covered by this general info about all their fellowships, and that it thus doesn’t allow for candidates without a PhD.

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  239. former fellow

    I will say though I do think the FAQ page is pretty clear that they don’t have any fellowships that are available to people without a PhD/terminal degree:
    https://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/scholarly-programs/faqs/

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  240. early career philosopher

    For what it’s worth: I reached out to them before submitting my application, because the description of the Quinn Fellowship for “early career philosophers” seemed to contradict the info on the general FAQ page saying that all of their fellowships were for mid to late career scholars with lots of publications, etc. (I am in my first year post-PhD.) They told me that the Quinn Fellowship was an exception to the standard eligibility requirements listed on the FAQ page. They didn’t mention the degree-in-hand requirement. So OP was correct to ignore the information on the general FAQ page when applying for the Quinn. There really should have been clear eligibility criteria listed for the Quinn somewhere.

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  241. too early in my career, apparently.

    @early career philosopher
    Yes, thank for noticing that the Quinn fellowship is an explicit exception to the normal fellowship eligibility requirements (it is specifically for early career scholars) and not for mid to late career scholars as the other NHC fellowships are. In fact one is required to have earned ones PHD 5 years prior to applying for the standard fellowship, which rules out most early career scholars (despite the contradictory statement that “Emerging scholars with a strong record of peer-reviewed work may also apply.”
    I reached out to them at the time of application to confirm that one did not have to be 5 years out from the PhD to apply. I was given no indication that the PhD must already be in hand at the time of application. (I assumed it would be required by the time of the fellowship start date).
    So, yes, this was not a matter of me not reading the FAQ.

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  242. Left on read?!

    An interesting trend: in years past, virtually all of my first round zoom interviews ended “Our timeline is…” This year, none. The n is low, so this might just be all noise no signal.

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  243. anon

    anyone ghosted after the first round interview? (I am wondering if this is quite common)

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  244. ghosted

    @anon – it’s happened to me. once I reached out to check in eventually and got a clarifying response, once I never heard anything besides a much later ‘the position has been filled’ memo.
    it feels really bad, but I think it’s quite common (frustratingly) for departments to have rules from the university HR which don’t allow them to give anyone a no until the position is completely filled — or just for search committees to be very busy.

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  245. story of the ghost

    @anon in my experience, it’s quite common. As in, ~75% of the time, with a sample size of 25-30. At this point, I am surprised if I hear anything.

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  246. sucks man

    Has anyone else ever believed themselves to be in a better position going into a job market season relative to previous cycles, perhaps due to new or more prestigious publications, new letters, new institutional affiliation, etc., and it not borne out? I had thought my prospects might have improved for some of these reasons this go-around, but in fact I’ve landed noticeably fewer first-round interviews. I know every cycle is different, but… frustrating!

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  247. Also sucks

    Hey sucks man, this is exactly my situation this year. So you’re not alone. I’m not sure how to make sense of it either.

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  248. same_boat

    @suck man: I had the same experience this year. I do not know how to make sense of that!

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  249. Just keep swimming

    @sucks man
    Yeah… I just aim at incremental improvements year over year knowing that their cumulative effect will kick in eventually even with all the noise. It helps to direct my energy towards ways I can currently improve instead of getting too caught up in the number of first-rounders I get in a given year

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  250. curious

    I am a newbie in the job market, and I have a question. When departments post the job talks (with names) on their calendars, doesn’t this create tension between candidates in TT positions and the departments they are trying to leave behind?

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  251. anon

    @curious I don’t know how other departments approach this but at my alma mater we just advertised them as “colloquia.” Everybody in the department knew which colloquia were job talks, but the intentionally vague public language made life easier for candidates who wanted to keep their job hunts discreet.

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  252. curious

    Yes, that’s how they are advertised in this case too. But, by this point, most of us know what three colloquia in the same area in January mean…

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  253. A Frustrated Philosopher

    I have a question regarding the impact of citation counts for search committees. Does this matter at all, or is publication venue always something more important to take into consideration?
    I am asking this because in recent years, I have amassed a very large number of citations and, for my field and career stage, I am among top early career scholars in the international scene (I am also being cited by scholars outside of philosophy, which seems, at least to me, a good thing and sign of impact). However, this last year in the job market, this didn’t seem to matter at all… I only got a single interview in the year where my publications got more impact and were discussed by more and more colleagues. I feel disheartened to say the least…
    So I am wondering what are the positions of search committees regarding citations? Why is it a more sensible choice to go for someone with very few publications in top journals (but with also very few citations) instead of candidates with more publications in reasonably well-ranked journals with plenty of citations? Why is it more valued to have, say, a paper in Noûs with no impact whatsoever instead of a paper in another journal (lower in the ranking) that actually generates philosophical debates and opens conversations? For me it is very weird to browse through the Google Scholar pages of US-based philosophers and see that Assistant Professors have very few citations (and this is most often the case for several years and can even stay like this after tenure).

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  254. Silly question

    This is perhaps a silly question, but is there any reason to think that the order of one’s fly-out will have any impact on job prospects?! Someone recently mentioned in an off-handed way that in their (years of) experience, the first fly-out candidate is usually the worst. I’m pretty sure I’m the first of three in my upcoming on-campus visit. Am I doomed?!

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  255. not sure why it should matter.

    I’ve never once looked at citation counts on the hiring side. I guess I’m not sure why hirers should care about citation counts as much more than maybe a tiebreaker or something? When I’m reviewing files I’m looking at the quality of the writing sample primarily. But also citation counts aren’t a good guide to much I think… and different philosophers are going to care more or less about being cited outside of philosophy. I happen to not care much because it seems basically random what gets picked up outside of philosophy–and I’ve seen so many philosophers who I think are not producing very philosophically interesting or robust work get cited e.g. by scientists precisely because they are doing something that is less philosophical and more easily digestible. YMMV and every philosopher is different, but the primary thing I’m looking for is philosophical depth/interest/ability, and I don’t see any reason that should correlate to citation counts. Also, in junior searches it’s basically irrelevant as far as I can tell, since it’s very hard to predict what will and will not get picked up in the future. Also, a lot of citation stuff is just about who is working on hot topics at the right time. But why care about that?

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  256. Cited

    Frustrated,
    You have my sympathy. I believe that citations do matter, and I certainly consider them in hiring. There is a catch though. For entry level jobs (assistant professorships in the USA), such measures are not very helpful as few people have many citations (is someone’s research having more impact that has 30 citations than one whose research has 20?). Further along, citation counts are more meaningful. Comparing people at the same career stage, say 6 years out, and one has 1200 citations and the other 150 … well that says something. And I hope my colleagues would recognize that. Unfortunately, this is not always the case … people whose work is not highly cited tend to think citations do not matter. Go figure?!

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  257. an experienced cynic

    @not sure why it should matter Right, why care at all about one of the most important measures for evaluation used in other disciplines (and by funding bodies) when we can instead rely on our infallible unbiased expert opinions, especially when so many of these experts would score terribly when evaluated along this measure? It seems much more sensible to continue incentivizing philosophers to publish articles that are read only by the other five specialists working on their topic, in journals whose prestige is able to endure only due to the complete lack of objective evaluation, rather than to actually try and get one’s work picked up on by people outside of the navel-gazing conservative philosophical ivory tower.
    Not that I disagree with the point about possible citation-inflation, quality and citations definitely do not perfectly correlate. But to someone presume that they offer no insight whatsoever and therefore we should ignore them because well, we’re philosophers after all and we know everything better, that’s just … [insert yet another frustrated comment by someone who’s been on the market for too long].

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  258. How long

    How many days do you think typically pass between a department’s final day of first-round interviews and flyout invitations being sent to selected candidates?

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  259. go get them

    @Silly question I thought this was a silly question too… until I experienced two searches up close—order matters more than I would have expected. In any case: focus on giving it all your best. You can go first, the second candidate can get a cold, and the third could have broken up with their partner two weeks ago.

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  260. Opinions

    @Frustrated For many philosophers, being cited by non-philosophy scholars is not a good sign. If anyone without a working knowledge of philosophy can understand what you are saying, they think, your paper doesn’t cut deep.

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  261. not sure why it should matter.

    Well, in my own case I have one publication that has a large number of citations purely because it is on a topic that there is a massive amount of work being published on. It’s pretty clearly my worst paper (I am an associate professor nearing promotion for full; it was published just after I got out of grad school)–it’s not very substantive and just makes a minor critique of a common move in that literature. In my letters for my tenure case, almost none of my letter writers even mentioned or discussed the paper, and instead focused on work they thought was more interesting or substantive. And in my experience looking at citation numbers, this kind of thing is very common.
    I’m sure things are different in other places, but if you teach in a research-focused R1, and you are asking yourself questions like “will this candidate get tenure here”, you will be asking about what experts in their subfield will think and say about their work. And experts in subfields typically don’t care about citation counts, in my experience. They care about their own evaluation of the work.
    Anyway, it’s not just relying on our unfallible unbiased expert opinions. It’s noting that there’s a general fact: citation counts don’t correlate to quality in philosophy–I think with the possible exception of some very empirically-focused areas, most “experts” in various subfields will agree with that–and so they aren’t a good guide to anything. It’s not about one’s expertise in a specific situation trumping the measure of citation counts for that candidate. It’s that it seems like there is just general evidence that they don’t correlate to the kind of thing that research-focused departments typically care about.

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  262. Mike Titelbaum

    @How long: It’s really difficult to know. For instance, at my institution we finish the Zoom interviews, then we have to get approval from the dean for our flyout names. We’re literally not supposed to communicate anything to the candidates until we hear back from the dean. But the dean might be off for the holidays, or out of town visiting donors, or.… Hopefully you’re told at the end of the interview when you should expect news, but sometimes we lack the ability to accurately predict.
    @Silly question: The order of flyouts need not be indicative of anything about how the candidates are viewed. It’s often fully determined by scheduling issues of which candidates are available when. As for the post hoc evaluation, sometimes the first candidate comes off so well that everyone subsequent pales by comparison! So I wouldn’t worry about it.

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  263. enthusiasm

    I have a question for the community here that I’d like some feedback on. I (very luckily) had an on-campus/flyout interview recently (my first one in a while) and my experience was overall very good, but one part was confusing: I was expecting the search committee to be more enthusiastic about me/me being there. (maybe that’s egocentric of me, I don’t know) It’s not that they weren’t friendly, but during downtime etc. they were very happy to have small talk and they didn’t ask me many additional questions about research, teaching, etc. Is this normal? Am I reading too much into it? Maybe one reason for my paranoia is that one of my only previous on-campus interviews was ‘fake’ – they had an internal candidate and I was just filling space. I don’t think this is the case now (for one, they flew me across the Atlantic), but their relative lack of enthusiasm has given me some pause. Any thoughts/feedback from people who have had more experience with on-campus interviews would be greatly appreciated.

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  264. southerner

    @enthusiasm Congrats on the fly out! Departments are looking for fit in ways other than research and teaching – they might just want to know what you’re like to hang out with. And they might also want to give you (and themselves) a break from being “on.”
    If the department is somewhat isolated (which, in the US, even big state schools can be) they might be halfway looking for a new friend.
    This kind of downtime is also good for candidates to find out what it’s like to live in a place. Is that small talk? Yeah, but it’s potentially the next 30 years of your life, so. Not as small as it seems.

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  265. Suspend

    @enthusiasm Some people love small talk. Some people test the candidates through small talk. Some people want to give you a break from talking about your research. Some people want to give themselves a break. My recommendation: do not overthink it. A nice department might make you feel wanted. But it is not the rule.

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  266. St.John’s

    Might anyone else applying for the following position:
    https://workforcenow.adp.com/mascsr/default/mdf/recruitment/recruitment.html?cid=186df793-0389-4d13-86f4-79cc74783c28&ccId=19000101_000001&source=CC2&lang=en_US&selectedMenuKey=CareerCenter&jobId=521237
    https://www.sjc.edu/annapolis/human-resources/annapolis-faculty-applicants
    Among the required documents are: ‘Three letters of recommendation from persons who have known you in an academic capacity. These references should be uploaded with other required documents with your online application.’
    Am I right to think that these are non-confidential letters?

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  267. enthusiasm

    Thanks @southerner and @Suspend – that’s super helpful. I personally don’t mind small talk at all! And I tried to just be myself anyways so I think that side of things went well too. So I’m probably overthinking it. I appreciate your feedback!

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  268. St. John’s Letters

    @St. John’s: It’s probably best to email the Dean’s office to ask. For the Santa Fe jobs, they wanted letters via Interfolio email transfer despite similar language on the application itself.
    (I could be wrong, but I think the norm is to only send confidential letters.)

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  269. St. John’s Santa Fe Curious

    Anyone have any intel about the St. John’s Santa Fe’s Tutor and Teaching Fellow positions?
    Any interviews scheduled or anything else?
    I’ve seen the posts about staggered snail mail PFOs. I’m trying not to, but I’m still watching my mailbox.

    Reply
  270. SJC insider

    On St. John’s: The Dean has said that they are looking to hire 3-4 tutors and 2-3 teaching fellows. Interview invites will likely go out soonish, and visits will be in March (they don’t do zoom interviews in my experience).

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  271. St. John’s

    @St. John’s Letters: Thanks so much! I did that over the weekend and haven’t heard back. Will keep everyone posted once I do 🙂
    @SJC insider: Thank you for the info!!

    Reply
  272. Rummaging in the dark

    Is it ever appropriate to ask for more information about an upcoming interview? I recently had one where not only was I not told by the chair who else would be at the interview or what topics would be discussed (let alone what questions asked), I wasn’t even told how long the interview would last! It did not go well. While the outcome is partly my fault, in retrospect, I’m left wondering which of these would have been reasonable to ask about.

    Reply
  273. St. John’s Santa Fe Curious

    @SJC Insider: Wow! Thank you so much for sharing! I had no idea there were so many potential openings for both positions. Very helpful!

    Reply
  274. out of the loop

    This is my first year on the market. I’m learning now that there are a number of jobs (such as as Society of Fellows postdocs at various universities) that weren’t posted to the usual sites where I know to look for job postings. Is there any list someone has made of these jobs (the ones that are open annually or every few years, but generally aren’t posted)? In future years, I want to make sure not to miss any of these opportunities, and would love to have a list to share with friends and colleagues going on the market in future years as well. Thanks!

    Reply
  275. ask and ye shall receive

    @Rummaging sorry to hear about that. My experience is that it’s standard to be told how long the interview will last (this is bare minimum scheduling info) and a list of names of who will be on the interviewing committee. If I haven’t been told these things, I would assume it was an oversight and ask. However, search committees don’t usually send out a list of questions before the interview so I would not ask for that.

    Reply
  276. Interviews – Clear vs Obscure

    @Rummaging: I’m sorry to hear that! Here’s what I was advised and has worked for me: ask if they can share more info about “the structure of the interview, who you’ll be interviewing with” (it’s nice to know how many philosophers vs profs from other fields are there; it can affect how you approach tailoring an answer sometimes.), and ask if they’re particularly interested in discussing anything specific about your background or dossier. (That can help you get a sense of the ratio of research to teaching to DEI or service questions they may ask.) Sometimes they will share the specific questions. Usually, if you tell the chair that you’d appreciate any info they can share as you prep, they’ll share what they can.
    You have nothing to lose by asking! Just be polite. They selected you among a huge group of applicants; they want you to do well. If having more info can help, they won’t mind sharing at it. Win-win!
    I’m currently facing an unusual situation: HR said they can’t tell me who the chair or committee members are until I arrive for my interview. It’s a policy. Anyone else experience this? I wouldn’t mind if it was a first-round Zoom interview, but it’s a first-round fly-out interview, which feels oddly mysterious.

    Reply
  277. Wondering

    Does anyone have any information/updates on any of the following?
    – UC Riverside, Prof. of Teaching (https://philjobs.org/job/show/27926)
    – NYU, Bersoff Postdoc
    -Harvard, Embedded EthiCS Postdoc
    – U. Chicago, Collegiate Assistant Prof (https://philjobs.org/job/show/26846)
    Thank you!

    Reply
  278. Berliner

    UPDATE: Request for further documents from the Humboldt University, Berlin for their Early Modern TT search.

    Reply
  279. M

    guys, wrong thread

    Reply
  280. Getmeoutofhere!

    The Humboldt early modern job has apparently sent a request for documents of some candidates who applied for the TT early modern jobs. I have been told that they ask for one’s PhD dissertation and two article length papers. Someone I know has been asked for more documents and this is what they told me.
    This suggests that it is not the same kind of request for documents that happens with North American jobs, but rather, seems that the list is probably quite short if they are asking for that much reading from individual candidates. If anyone can confirm whether this is normally how German jobs proceed, this would be greatly appreciated by someone who is hoping to eventually get work in Europe and not the US.
    This leads me to ask, is there anyone here who demystify some of the German process here? Or confirm if this is common in some other European jobs? Would a request for documents like this usually indicate that they have quite short lists to invite to interview?
    Thank you to anyone who can answer these questions.

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  281. German

    @Getmeoutofhere! The stages in German tenured/tenure-track jobs are usually: initial application -> request for papers -> flyout -> third-party reviewers -> final decision
    Typically, around 4-8 people might be interviewed, at the request for papers stage the list is still a bit longer.
    This is the German process in particular, other European countries are different.

    Reply
  282. losing it

    Anybody have any good advice about how to not go crazy between the campus visit and learning the outcome phases? Asking for a friend

    Reply
  283. good luck!

    @losing it Sorry you are going through it! I don’t have advice beyond the usual strategies for emotional equanimity e.g. try not to succumb too much to the will to seek reassurance, make sure you’re doing lots else in your day that keeps you busy and your attention fully engaged. It may also be worth remembering that what happens now has almost nothing to do with you. They will decide what they are looking for. Some political things may happen in their decision room. Your job was to show them your work and you’ve done that. Out of your hands now. Good luck!

    Reply
  284. Suddenly everyone is an AI expert

    I’m sorry but there are way too many jobs with AOSs/AOCs in “AI Ethics,” “Philosophy of AI,” etc. How many PhDs are graduating this year with legitimate (not “It’s trendy so I threw together a syllabus based on stuff I googled”) AOSs/AOCs in AI? 10-20 max? Meanwhile, I’ve seen dozens upon dozens of jobs in this area. The cynical side of me infers from this: Many of the people filling these jobs are BSing their way into them. “Applied ethics” is increasingly becoming a field where people say “Oh yeah, I know a little Kant, Mill, and Aristotle, now let’s ‘apply’ their ideas to [insert anything that will get me a job].”

    Reply
  285. Anony

    @Suddenly
    I’ve noticed this too. I wonder if it is less about candidates fudging their credentials and more about schools saying, “So our admin will only approve a line if it has “AI” in the job ad. Let’s just hire for the AOS we actually want, and just make sure they can shoehorn in something AI-adjacent.”

    Reply
  286. losing it

    @good luck! Thank you! That helps 🙂

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  287. Sartorially challenged

    Should I wear a suit to a flyout?

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  288. Should Have Done Something in Normative Theory

    Suddenly everyone is an AI expert,
    Those of us who are long in the tooth on the job market can remember the same thing happening with philosophy of medicine during the pandemic, and before that with race/gender.
    These fads come and go, while it does seem that people working in normative theory find it easier to adapt their research topics to these areas and even reshape them, e.g. there seems to be very little interest in philmind approaches to AI, even though 15 years ago philosophers of mind were the only philosophers I knew personally who knew about AI. Similarly, people working on medicine from a philsci perspective seem to have benefited a lot less from the covid pandemic than people refitting their research in ethics of X to medicine.
    However, though I don’t recall the exact stats, my impression is that normative theory is its own job market: lots of jobs compared to other areas, but also lots of applications. So it’s not surprising that, when an area becomes popular, it becomes flooded with people who do normative theory, who (I think?) have the added advantage that a plurality of search committees for tenure-track jobs are also doing normative theory. Conversely, the postdoc market in normative theory seems to be brutal – even if there are plenty of postdocs in normative theory, the mass of applicants problem seems less mitigated than for VAP/TT jobs.

    Reply
  289. No costumes

    @sartotially challenged you should dress up to look polished and show respect for the formality of the occasion. For many that means a suit. But don’t if you will be buying it just for this, if it risks looking cheap or ill fitting, or if you’ll feel like you are playing dress up in it. Better to deliberately look slightly more casual than to aim at formality and miss. Wear whatever makes you feel like yourself, at your most professional.

    Reply
  290. Minority here

    @Sartorially challenged If you are a minority member, I would 100% recommend erring on the side of overdressing. Faculty like to think they have fewer biases than the ones they actually have.

    Reply
  291. Search committee member

    Amplifying @No costumes’ statement that you should “Wear whatever makes you feel like yourself, at your most professional.” This might mean going shopping for something that makes you feel that way, or it might mean wearing a staple in your closet.

    Reply
  292. just being honest

    Constantly checking, or feeling the urge to check, the job market reporting thread is ruining my life.

    Reply
  293. Clock’s A-Tickin’

    Sorry if this isn’t the right place to ask (new here), but I’m wondering about the Mahindra postdoc at Harvard and my odds as a finalist. There are five positions total; is there any sense of how many finalists there are for such a position?

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  294. Disjunctive Syllogism

    @Sartorially challenged:
    I would add the extra point that you should dress professionally on the plane. I had a situation on a fly-out once where the airline misplaced by luggage, and I had to meet the Dean and the College President wearing the clothes on my back. I’m lucky I wore khakis and a tie. If I had warn cargo shorts and my Napalm Death T-shirt, it would have been a far bigger disaster than it already was.

    Reply
  295. losing it

    @just being honest – I can totally relate. Honestly, just ban yourself from checking. Just put it out of your mind. You’ll get the official news from the proper channel in due time. Better for your mental health to just not assume anything is happening until it does. (keep in mind this is coming from someone who feels the same urge as you haha). Best of luck, and I hope you eventually get good news 🙂

    Reply
  296. Challenged in more than one way apparently

    Thank you emails after flyouts? Yay or nay?

    Reply
  297. There’s good people out there!

    I don’t really know of any other forum to voice this, but:
    I am on the job market this cycle, and I had a really disruptive personal life event. I reached out to departments that had shown interest in me, and (nearly without exception), they responded in very humane, very kind ways. In some cases, that meant that re-arranging things. In other cases, there weren’t really good re-arranging options, but still I was treated kindly and directly. The life event is very hard, and on top of that having at promising job prospects disappear suddenly was disappointing after months of work. Some things can’t be avoided. But the way most of the departments responded, and the way I was treated, meant a lot to me.
    The job market sucks, and it is all too common to (rightly!) feel like departments aren’t as considerate as they could be. But I wanted to at least pass along this unfortunately occasioned anecdote. I have (hopefully adequately!) expressed my appreciation to the hiring committees themselves. But I also wanted to put a tiny counterbalance to the not-incorrect ordinary narrative.

    Reply
  298. lowly job seeker

    What does the community think of the shift in NIH indirect costs? It is a major disruption to the funding stream of universities, of course. I expect job searches will be canceled left and right, including rescission of offers, etc. You can’t wall off the arts and humanities from such a drop in revenue–it’s too large.

    Reply
  299. guy a. person

    @Challenged: I think it’s good practice. Ideally, you reach out to several of the people you meaningfully interacted with, but only if it feels genuine.

    Reply
  300. St. John’s – Limbo

    @losing it — Just echoing here: you’re not alone! I am buried in work, but I can’t help but check! I try to keep the tab super hard to get to on my phone as a deterrent! 😄
    This season, St. John’s Santa Fe is (oddly) the only one eating at me. Still only crickets here, and I can see many other candidates received PFOs and interview invites by now. I never expect a PFO. Being ghosted is normal, but if others are receiving word—good or bad—it feels worse.
    @St. John’s Insider: Any chance do you know what’s up? Are they interviewing for both roles right now?

    Reply
  301. Re: Flyout Attire

    @Challenged: I feel you. No matter what I try to put together, I feel like I’m dressed for a corporate job interview. I’m just trying to find little ways to make it my own so I feel confident and like myself (like my favorite lipstick or comfy heels). Overdressing is always better than not.
    Also, remember at least one professor in the room will probably be in a suit, too. Many men in my department (in Texas) dress business casual regularly, and most of the faculty generally will dress up more when we have visitors for job talks and colloquia talks. I hope that helps!

    Reply
  302. 20-min Teaching Demos

    Anyone have experience giving 20-minute teaching demos?
    This time limit feels unnatural and seems like it may be tough to connect with the audience. I’ve only done 50-minute demos, which is like a typical class period.
    Any experiences, suggestions, or insights are very welcome!

    Reply
  303. teach demos

    re: 20 minute teaching demos — I’ve given a few of these, and to me they’re a sweet spot for teaching just one small concept. is there a thought experiment you really love, or a very short passage from a key text you think is particularly fascinating? I usually do something like, intro of why the idea is important, work through the text, then wrap up with some practical applications.
    Basically, do all the same strategies you’d do when teaching a full-length class, but narrow the scope of the material considerably.

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  304. losing it

    When is it appropriate to send an e-mail about the search status after a flyout/on-campus interview? Based on the timeline I was given I’m not nervous yet, but since there’s been no contact since just after the interview, I’m starting to wonder if I should check in.

    Reply
  305. fellow loser of it

    @losing it, I am in a similar (but more low-stakes) situation. I interviewed about a month ago and the interviewer told me they would be moving quickly, but I haven’t heard anything. I’m tempted to email.
    Here is an older PC post about this for people in my situation: https://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2022/02/follow-up-job-market-emails.html

    Reply
  306. wondering

    QUERY: St. Mary’s College VAP feminist philosophy, philosophy of gender, healthcare ethics?
    https://philjobs.org/job/show/27666
    Thanks!

    Reply
  307. losing it

    @fellow loser of it – Thank you! I hadn’t seen that thread. In case you haven’t seen it, I also found this helpful: https://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2018/06/the-secret-lives-of-search-committees-part-20-what-happens-after-interviews.html
    Also, if you google ‘time after campus interview’ you gets lots of interesting stuff, mostly from other disciplines, but I found it helpful.
    Best of luck to you! In my case I often talk myself out of writing – self-analysis just tells me I’m being anxious, and since the timeline I was told hasn’t elapsed, I don’t want to step out of line and inquire prematurely. So my advice: act as your most professional self would act, even if it means painfully waiting for possible weeks.

    Reply
  308. Lethbridgerton

    Anyone know the story here? Didn’t Lethbridge do an ethics search last Spring? Is this a second position or was it a failed search? https://philjobs.org/job/show/28693

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  309. Lethbridge Reject

    @Lethbridgerton: I’m also curious! I had what I thought was a decent Zoom interview for the previous position and was then sadly ghosted. I assume it was a failed search.
    Would it be weird to apply again? I’d be interested to hear people’s advice here.

    Reply
  310. leth

    Regarding Lethbridge: you can see on their homepage (News/Events) that they ended up hiring someone last year, but in mind, metaphysics, etc. Not sure what the deal was there, so maybe this is a different but similar position?

    Reply
  311. Lethbridge Mystery

    @leth Looking at expired ads on Philjobs, Lethbridge had 2 searches last year, one for mind/epistemology/language and another for ethics.

    Reply
  312. Lethbridge Reject

    @leth
    That was a different position that was filled before the Ethics search.

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  313. leth

    thanks for the corrections – must have been a failed search last time around then!

    Reply
  314. newbie

    How does a search “fail”? Newbie here

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  315. Daniel Weltman

    newbie: I think the usual ways a search fails are 1) the department can’t agree on who to hire so they don’t hire anyone, 2) the department doesn’t get any applicants they are excited enough about hiring so they don’t hire anyone, 3) the department’s preferred candidate(s) are not accepted by higher-ups at the university so they don’t hire anyone rather than compromising and hiring someone they don’t like as much, and 4) something happens (usually financial) and the job is no longer available so they don’t hire anyone for it. Another possibility is that the person who was leaving decides not to leave (or delays leaving) such that the position they thought would be open turns out no longer to be open.

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  316. Assistant Prof

    @newbie: there can be a number of reasons. Sometimes it ‘fails’ because it gets cancelled, e.g., if suddenly university admins say there’s no funding for it. Sometimes it fails because no suitable candidate is found after the search. For example, a department might be restricted to 3 flyouts (per year, at least), and all 3 might not meet the standards of the department. My understanding is that this kind of fail is uncommon for departments who cannot be certain that the university will approve a similar search the year after; but not uncommon for departments who can (e.g., Princeton apparently posts a search almost every year, and commonly no one is made an offer). Finally, in some cases the department might be happy with someone, but the higher-ups are not. I know this happened at the tippy-top Ph.D program I attended, where the department was happy with someone that the higher ups thought wasn’t good enough (essentially because they would only be happy with someone considered a top-3 scholar in their area).

    Reply
  317. Chris

    Another kind of “fail” – is the department flies three candidates out, all of who meet the standards of the department. However, one is offered the job – eventually turns it down (perhaps after an extension…), another is offered the job, turns it down and then the third flyout turns it down. At the point, the department might feel like it is too late in the game to bring another candidate out that year, so the search “fails” and is re-run the following year. Maybe this sort of failure is less common than when the job market wasn’t so bad, but it does happen.

    Reply
  318. Newbie

    Dear Daniel, Assistant Prof, and Chris,
    Thank you for the input! A failed search seems like an incredible waste of time. I don’t know how the Princeton people do it every year, but good for them I guess

    Reply
  319. New College? More like Kewl Knowledge, am I right? Or am I right? Or am I right?

    What’s the deal with this freshly posted New College ad? The “deadline for full consideration” is June 30, so four and a half months away! And the job is supposed to start in Fall 2025, so they would have to review apps, interview people, make an offer, and complete a hire within the space of two months.
    https://philjobs.org/job/show/28734

    Reply
  320. Re: new college

    I personally wouldn’t touch the Chris Rufo institution with a ten foot pole

    Reply
  321. Daniel Weltman

    With respect to the New College job, the university has recently been taken over by right-wingers who have been cleaning house, hiring right-wingers, closing the gender studies program and dumping its books in the dumpster, etc. See https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/nov/11/new-college-of-florida-rightwing-takeover About 40% of the faculty who were there when it was taken over have resigned (says Wikipedia).
    I have no clue if the Philosophy job search is being run by the right-wingers looking for another right-winger, or by non-right-wingers looking for anyone qualified, or if there’s an ongoing internal fight about who will get hired with an outcome that is up in the air, or whatever. Given how nuts stuff sounds over there, weirdness with the posting date and decision date seems like it’s not surprising.

    Reply
  322. paranoid

    I have a question for people who have served on committees: is there any downside to notifying a committee that one has another offer? Even if one is polite and tactful when doing so, could this negatively influence their decision? I’m thinking, for instance, of a committee thinking: ‘oh, this person has another offer, so let’s just offer to our second choice’ or ‘they need to decide fast and we need more time, so let’s forget about them’. Could this happen?

    Reply
  323. maybe just avoid florida

    For folks abroad/avoiding US news of late, the New College was taken over by Florida’s extreme rightwing governor DeSantis. The strange timeline of the job ad could have to do with their reported difficulty retaining legit faculty since the reorganization.

    Reply
  324. anon

    do interviews really make a huge difference? or do the search com. already have a sense who to invite?

    Reply
  325. super congrats if you get 2 offers

    @paranoid From the perspective of an applicant who has been in the position of interviewing after receiving an offer, my sense is that you shouldn’t tell committee B about offer A until you have an offer from B in hand – due to the types of concern you mention. Once you have two offers in hand then you can use them to negotiate. However, there can be circumstances when it’s unavoidable: say committee A is pressuring you to make a decision so you would need an offer from B quickly. In this case I think you can just be honest and explain the circumstances in a way that conveys enthusiasm for job B. In the past I have done this by follow up email if it seemed awkward to bring up during the course of an interview.
    @anon There are cases of both types, and also intermediate cases. Since you don’t know which is the case, you should treat each interview as if it might make a difference.

    Reply
  326. scarystuff

    @anon
    In my experience, interviews can be very important. I was recently on a committee in which a good interview solidified one candidate’s position at the top of the list and a poor interview with a candidate of a similar status going into the interview was a decisive factor against continuing their candidacy.

    Reply
  327. Search Committee Novice

    anon,
    In my limited experience and from what I’ve heard, the search committee is often divided and differences in interview can be one of the factors that sways things over the line for one candidate.

    Reply
  328. marys

    @wondering at least two flyouts have been scheduled for Saint Mary’s VAP. Not sure what it means for those who haven’t heard anything yet. Best of luck!

    Reply
  329. Buckeye-for-now

    For those looking at the Chase Center at OSU: Know that this was one of those state-mandated ‘civics’ centers for the purpose of promoting conservative thought, and was voted down by the University Senate though this has no effect because the state legislature demanded the Center happen. This is not to tell you not to apply or to start a conversation on the ethics of working in such centers in this thread (happy to have that elsewhere), but to at minimum let you know what you might be getting into by taking such a job. Non-paywalled article from student paper here as non-paywalled starting point: https://www.thelantern.com/2025/01/university-senate-votes-against-salmon-p-chase-center-for-civics-culture-and-society-what-does-this-decision-really-mean/

    Reply
  330. carolina curious

    QUERY: any news about Clemson (epistemology/metaphysics/science) post-flyouts?

    Reply
  331. wondering

    @marys thank you for the info!

    Reply
  332. salmon chaser

    @buckeye-for-now Since the norms on this thread are looser than the reporting thread, I’ll just say that I think these civics centers are generally a very good way of fostering intellectual diversity, and I’m glad they exist. What would be the ethical concern about it?

    Reply
  333. sunny side down

    This is going to be such a generic question, but I feel like I’m losing it. I’ve sent out over 100 job applications. (I work at the intersection of three big areas) Haven’t heard back from anywhere apart from rejections; I haven’t even made a long list.
    I’m ABD at a top school. I don’t have publications, which I’m sure is part of it, but I haven’t even heard back from clearly teaching-focused jobs. I know I have good letters, a good writing sample, and a solid teaching portfolio.
    Does anyone have advice about what to do? (Is there anything to be done, or is this just the state of things for everyone?) Should I be asking people on my department’s own job search committee if they can give me feedback on my application? Is that too much to ask?
    I’m just not sure what my next steps should be. Clearly something’s got to change.

    Reply
  334. 1st time applicant

    @sunny side down
    I’m in a similar position. I think it’s just how the job market is. Sadly with the current administration I don’t think the job market will improve for the next few years. Me and people applying out in my cohort are applying to any job the we might remotely fit into and we have gotten very few interviews. It looks like most of us will be going to post docs and applying out again next year.

    Reply
  335. downer

    @sunny side down: I’m in a pretty similar position, so I’d really like to hear what others have to say about this as well. My guess is that the lack of publications is the biggest problem, but as with my own situation, I don’t think that explains the lack of interest from teaching-focused jobs. It’s upsetting to say the least.

    Reply
  336. placement director

    If you’re getting a postdoc on your first time on the job market… you’re doing better than most people (just to respond to 1st time applicant).
    To respond to sunny side down: I think publishing is very important, so I would focus all your attention on that. There’s a huge difference between one and zero publications on the job market, and then a much smaller difference between one and two. If you’re targeting the teaching market, the most important thing you can do is amass as much teaching experience as possible. You are competing against people who have many years of varied solo teaching experience. It doesn’t matter how good your materials are if you haven’t taught nearly as much as they have. If you are at a top program, you may also be being hurt by people perceiving you as not interested in their jobs or as a flight risk. I would also recommend tailoring your applications to teaching schools to make very clear that you are interested in that particular school, and why.
    But also: I think this is extremely common and is what happens to most first time job applicants.
    I think 1st time applicant unfortunately underestimates things radically when they say the job market will likely not improve for the next few years. So, if you are not independently wealthy, I would also strongly suggest taking steps to get yourself ready to be competitive for a non-academic career. I think we can expect a very severe drop in the academic job market.

    Reply
  337. Anony

    @salmon chaser
    I think that philosophers often value the marketplace-of-ideas ideal and do not sufficiently interrogate whether certain parties are coming to the public forum with ulterior motives that undermine the very ideal.
    This conservative thought center is being created in the context of constant false attacks about how liberals are indoctrinating students, while the conservatives in power in this country are taking large steps to full-blown fascism.
    Treating it as just a benign example of diversity of thought ignores the real-world context in which this center is being created. At the very least, it raises serious ethical concerns to discuss.

    Reply
  338. Change is Inevitable, Tenure-Track is Not

    sunny side down,
    I didn’t get any interviews until I had a publication and didn’t get a job offer (postdoc) until I had half-a-dozen. That was back in the late 2010s, when the job market was less competitive. I’m afraid that your experience is to be expected.
    Feedback on your applications is always valuable. I sought it whenever I could, including from my department, and I still get some feedback today (yes, I’m still applying for jobs…) when possible.

    Reply
  339. all is chaos

    I think an important thing to remember is that the job market is random. Having been in a SLAC department for a few years (and swapping stories with people at different kinds of institutions), there are innumerable factors in play that are totally inscrutable from the applicant side of the equation. The department might have been fighting about what to hire in, and the search committee was split on this issue, so now a job that is advertised in, say, Philosophy of Mind is really a search for someone who can do Mind, Social, and Ancient. Or, the search committee is highly partisan and rules out candidates who they think might ally with other factions in the department. Or, the search committee is composed of people who hate Leiter rankings, so they penalize people from highly ranked departments to counteract supposed prestige bias. It could even be as simple as–Professor A advocated for you in the initial stages, but everyone hates Professor A so now they hate you. It could be a hundred things, or a thousand things, or a million things that you could NEVER anticipate when writing an application.
    My impression is that R1s are marginally less chaotic than teaching schools because there is an obvious common goal of R1 departments: hire the productive researcher. That standard becomes less salient at teaching schools because they want someone who will connect with students, help grow the major, form good relationships with the Dean, etc etc. So, publishing helps, but only at places where being a productive researcher is an important part of the hiring process (at my department, for example, productive scholarship is almost a non-factor when selecting candidates).
    The process gets less chaotic, in my impression, as you advance. Success or failure at the Zoom interview stage is more tied to things you can control and the on-campus interview is also less chaotic. Although, the later you go, the more you are competing against equally qualified candidates. Intangibles then become important (e.g., “Is this someone I would like to have lunch with occasionally?”).
    I second the idea of getting feedback on your application, but it all must be taken with a grain of salt. Because departments are so idiosyncratic, there is very little generalizable advice. The only silver lining in all of this is that you don’t need to be successful on the job market, you just need one application to hit one time and then it’s up to you.
    For @sunny side down and @downer, I was in your position once, so I know what I’ve written won’t do much of anything to ameliorate the frustration and pain of the job market. It’s a random process, so (if it means anything to you) the lack of success really has no bearing on who you are or your merits as a philosopher.

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  340. The Real SLAC Prof

    @ Sunny Side Down:
    I’m sorry to hear of your difficulties. Yes, you should seek out feedback from your placement person and others in your department. I will say that I think it is a bit odd that you are surprised by not getting interviews when you have no publications. I say that not to throw shade at you, but I fear you may not be getting the best mentorship.
    People mark the distinction between “teaching focused” institutions and research-focused institutions in different ways, and I think this sometimes leads to misunderstandings. Some teaching-focused institutions do not care at all about candidates’ research profiles, but many do. In a buyer’s market, it is a helpful (and seemingly fair) way to narrow down the pool.
    I teach at a SLAC, and I suppose some might consider this a teaching-focused institution, but a research profile certainly counts here, much more so than teaching experience. We have been getting 400-600+ applications for TT jobs, and we immediately put to the side anyone who hasn’t published anything. Even when we hire visitors, publications matter (although they matter much less).
    While no doubt controversial, I also might encourage you to apply more narrowly and spend more time and energy on each application. I’m sure others will disagree, but for many institutions, a generic file that is not tailored to the specific needs of the school will not fare well. If you can closely tailor all 100 applications to the specific needs of each position, great. But I find it hard to believe that this is really possible, and you may do better with a more selective approach (once you have at least one publication).

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  341. The proof is in the multiple puddings

    @sunny,
    As other people have said, the job market sucks, and there is a lot of randomness to it.
    But there are two key things that I think it is also worth highlighting.
    First, get feedback, and get it from people outside of your department. Get enough feedback that the advice starts to be duplicative and conflicting. You’ll have to make some tough choices, but in my experience, this always improves things. I would look to alums of your school in various programs. I would look to job market mentoring programs. Keep your eyes peeled!
    Second, unfortunately, my guess is that your teaching materials are not that persuasive. This is nothing against you! I don’t know you, and I haven’t seen your materials. But I know that teaching materials just don’t vary that much. There are certainly bad portfolios. But once you set those aside, there is very little that really distinguishes portfolios. And portfolios do not really offer helpful evidence to distinguish good from great teaching. And portfolios do not really offer helpful evidence to distinguish relatively autonomous and flexible teachers from competent but narrow teachers who will need guidance.
    And this means that, unfortunately, as an ABD grad student, the thing you most control—the portfolio—just doesn’t matter that much. Even teaching awards and teaching letters do not matter that much. They just do not convey all that much helpful information.
    What matters? Teaching lots of classes as instructor of record. What is lots? Think at least double digits across multiple courses. And for most ABD students, that just isn’t on the table. By the time I was getting bites, I had taught 12 sections across 5 different courses, touching on ~3 different areas of philosophy. I don’t know what was getting me bites, but both I was a much better teacher with all of that experience and also the case that I would be able to hit the ground running was on paper.
    Is this fair? Who knows. But hiring committees, especially at teaching schools, aren’t in the business of being fair. They need to hire someone they can rely on. They don’t need the best possible teacher, nor to hire ‘prospects’. They need someone who is sufficiently good, and they need to avoid making a mistake. Hiring a grad student is almost always taking a big chance—both that the student leaves and that the student turns out to be a subpar teacher for their institution. And so my sense is that ABD students are going to struggle for teaching-focused jobs. So if you have, take some minor solace that this has everything to do with the structure of philosophy as a field and likely nothing to do with you or your chops in particular.

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  342. trying to maintain a shred of hope

    @placement director Do you have any particular insight into just how bad you are expecting the market to be next year? I know people are assuming it will be worse with everything going on, but I’m wondering how dire we’re talking. I haven’t (yet) heard of universities initiating hiring freezes for next year, for instance, but I’m not sure how early that typically happens. For reference, my first year was the 20-21 cycle. I’ve finally had some luck with publications this year, so I’m really hoping it’s not quite as bad as that year!!

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  343. placement director

    I have no more evidence than anyone else does. Right now everything seems way too in flux to make clear precise predictions. But if even just a little bit of what Trump is doing in the higher ed realm sticks (even in the good case where most of it gets struck down in court or he backs off it), I imagine we will see a lot of hiring freezes, grad program admissions freezes, and some cutting of departments and faculty.
    We haven’t heard much yet about plans at my own institution yet, but I will say that a friend at a very wealthy institution who is well connected to their administration already been told that they will likely be cutting back the faculty’s travel and research budgets, instituting a no raise policy, and not hiring. I believe that was immediately after the NIH news, though, so… everything is in flux.

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  344. Anony

    @sunny,
    A note to demonstrate just how random this all is…
    One of the few specific recommendations you got was: “What matters? Teaching lots of classes as instructor of record. What is lots? Think at least double digits across multiple courses.”
    I am at a teaching-focused college. We have hired a couple times over the last few years. Each time, our search committee seemed to only care that applicants had taught at least a class or two in the general field we need and that their student evals were good.
    I was shocked how little my colleagues on these committees cared about applicants having a long, diverse teaching record. To be clear, I completely agree with the commenter I quoted above, and yet many don’t.
    Again, so much of this is random. It will be nearly impossible to pinpoint any specific reasons for why this cycle hasn’t gone well. All you can do is improve your file in a bunch of ways (publishing, teaching more, etc.) and hope for the best.

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  345. OneUSPhilosopher

    @sunny side down,
    I echo the above thought that perhaps you are not getting the best mentorship when it comes to today’s philosophy job market and what reasonable expectations for getting a job are.
    Consider that there are MANY people on the job market (i.e. your competitors) who don’t just have many publications, but whose CVs are strong enough for tenure at virtually any university. Some of them are leaders in their subfield.
    This specific trend, and the difficulties of the philosophy job market generally, have been getting stronger for years, with no end in sight. The Trump reforms mentioned above are at least going to accelerate the trend. Possibly they’re going to radically transform academia.
    As for advice, I’ll simply reiterate @placement director: If you’re not independently wealthy, you should prepare, now, for a non-academic career.

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  346. placement director

    worth noting re: this discussion: on leiter’s blog, Sam Elgin at UCSD reports a total faculty and staff hiring freeze “for the indefinite future”.

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  347. anon

    Question: the Rutgers center for cog sci postdoc has a hard deadline of June.2.2025. Should one apply much earlier than that or could one wait and treat the June date as the actual application deadline…?

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  348. Help

    Will the MIT hiring freeze affect their postdoctoral positions? Do they count as “faculty” or “non-faculty”? https://orgchart.mit.edu/letters/hiring-freeze-non-essential-positions

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  349. you got the best fishing hole all to yourself…

    As we hear about more and more institutions cutting way back on admissions (the UCs, Pitt, Penn, so many more), has anyone heard of an aggressive institution taking advantage of these cutbacks to poach faculty, grad students, etc.? This is a terrible time, but I wonder if anyone is making moves?

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  350. deadpool

    how many mins should a dissertation spiel (and current projects etc) take? (the interview will take 45 mins and the teaching load is 3-3 so I am assuming there will be more questions about teaching)

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  351. mit freeze

    The MIT hiring freeze will not affect the postdoc position since it is funded externally.

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  352. interviews

    just a general question: are you guys reading too much into interviews? (to give an example, I had an interview last week where one faculty member seemed uninterested in what I was saying.)

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  353. richard

    @ interviews: yes. given how things are gestures around to the open air it’s difficult not to do so.
    I’ll just add on as an anecdote that’s been replicated in my small friend group also on the market. Reliably, the interviews I’ve felt worst about have ended up offering fly-outs (and job offers). The interviews I’ve walked away from confidently have not. What to infer from this? I try not to…

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  354. Niles Crane

    I thought I’d share my experience iin case it is helpful for anyone else, particularly those who are surprised by the difficulties they are experiencing on the job market. This is my second year on the market. I’m a post-doc now. My first year on the market I was a 6th year PhD candidate at a Leiter mid-tier department strong in my AOS (one of them, at any rate). I had 5 publications, all of which from mid-tier journals (I.e., Phil Studies, Synthese, etc.). I thought I would get something because of the publication volume at good (albeit not premier)journals. I applied to about 50 TT jobs and got 2 interviews. Neither turned into a fly-out. I panicked and pumped out 3 papers in the next two months so I could do better the next time. At this point I was beginning to see that I was competing poorly with people who had been out a long time, bouncing between post-docs, publishing well year after year. I landed a post-doc in Spring and defended in summer. This year I hit the market with 9 publications, one in a top-5 journal, the rest being mid-tier. I applied to about 30-35 TT jobs and got 4 interviews, plus one shortlist that’s still pending. The first three didn’t turn into flyouts, the others are yet to be determined. As with the previous year, I am finding that the jobs I applied for and felt optimistic about going in are going to people who have been out longer and published at a similar rate to me for a longer time. These people often have 2-3 top 5 publications and maybe a dozen mid-tier, specialist and invited volume lines on the cv. I’m most competitive for R1 jobs because my teaching portfolio is respectable but I haven’t taught nearly as much as a lot of people also on the market, so my research is the only thing that catches anyone’s attention when they’re looking through applications. The way I see it, I did a pretty good job building my cv for someone 6 months out of grad school, but the difficulties I’m facing are neither surprising nor unfair. It makes sense that the research jobs go to people who have been out for a long time and who have published consistently well for longer than I have. It makes sense that teaching jobs go to people who have been instructor of record for 15 courses (mind you, there are many such people on the market, so it’s hard even for them to find something). I expect I will be on the job market for a few more years. I will spend that time cranking out papers, hunting top-5 journals, and waiting for the people who finished their PhDs around 2020 to clear out of the applicant pool. I will bounce from post-doc to post-doc and live in several more countries before I land anything. Each move will be difficult since immigration is never easy. If I’m lucky, the academic world will not collapse before I get something, but it very well might. I mention all of this because I was initially surprised when I didn’t get anything out of grad school and I had a hard time making sense of it, as other contributors appear to be as well. But after seeing how many great CVs were built out of the pandemic backlog, I now see that I couldn’t have reasonably expected anything else. It’s a long and winding road to a TT job.

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  355. market dynamics

    I’m a job-seeking newbie with only 2 pubs, and I’ve only got 1 non-TT interview with no fly-out so far. For job-seeking veterans, are your experiences similar to @Niles Crane’s? Does the market have to clear out the experienced veterans before newbies like me can get much of a bite?

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  356. Soon a veteran, I guess?

    The “experienced veterans” never go away. Scholars are always trying to relocate or negotiate a better salary. I have had three campus visits in the past 2 years. The first job went to a candidate who already had a TT position. The second job went to a candidate who was already tenured. And thanks to the hiring freezes, the third is still TBD.

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  357. squid game quote reference

    @market dynamics My experience somewhat matches @Niles Crane. I was at a top-20 but not top-10 Leiter program, had 9 mid-tier (best venue = Phil Studies) pubs, and a handful of top-tier pubs in another field that is related to my AOS. I applied to about 200 TT jobs in 3 years on the market (I never went more selective because I had a multi-year postdoc and was extremely lucky to secure a TT before that postdoc ran out). My first year on the market, I got 2 fly-outs (0 offers). The next year, I got 1 fly-out (0 offers). Then 0 (subsequent years on the market also yielded 0 fly-outs, although I was aiming for moves up the ladder). All of this was happening while I continued to publish good papers, but nothing in a top-5 journal.
    This year, I had more success on the market (unfortunately, I am one of the mid-career people who is trying to move, but you would too if you were at my institution!). I believe it came down to a handful of things:
    1) Taking a lot of time to personalize letters–trying to understand what the department wants out of the hire, what the institution might want, and what individual faculty might want. This meant taking a lot more time to craft individual applications (which I couldn’t do when applying more widely).
    2) Demonstrating the projectibility of my research while highlighting the major accomplishments. Some good advice I got on this: departments are trying to figure out what you’ll become famous for, so you have to sell yourself as “The X person” (are you the grounding guy? the knowledge-first gal? What’s your brand?). The accomplishments are easy to read off a CV, but you need to package those accomplishments to highlight your big vision for changing the field (of course, this is a marketing exercise, because most people–myself included!–don’t really have any field-altering ideas).
    3) Shamelessly leaning on your professional network. Unlike previous years, I told everyone I knew in a position of professional privilege where I was applying and–if they could just spare a moment–to contact someone at the department informally to sing my praises.
    My sense is that early-career people sometimes beat out veterans for jobs. Some departments want to gamble on promise rather than taking a known commodity. Some departments feel like the veterans are just using the job offers to leverage more goodies from their home institution.
    In the end, it’s good to remember that any advice is hard to generalize. You’re basically doing whatever you can to buy a few more lottery tickets, but you must remember that you’re still playing the lottery. You know you’ll lose, but you must keep playing.

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  358. newbie2

    Thank you very much @Niles Crane for sharing your experience! I am a first-year applicant also from a mid-tier department strong in my AOS. This year I only got one TT interview without flyout and waitlisted for several postdocs. I was shocked since most people with similar publication (3) and teaching (2) record in my department got a TT or decent postdoc right after graduation. The feedback I received is simply that there are people who’ve been more experienced and fruitful. I mean, if postdocs are all hiring more experienced postdocs, where should a recent graduate ever start? It has been a hard time for me thinking about my mediocrity, wondering how long I will rove in different countries and how it is possible to do quality research while teaching, applying and moving. But certainly there are lessons about the value of resolution, research worth pursuing, care and collaboration. Part of the reality I guess is that one needs to learn to expect a longer battle and make every step count.

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  359. PhD Candidate

    I just want to emphasize how helpful the stories above are from job market veterans as someone preparing to go on the market this fall. Thank you! It would be great to hear more from folks too on their experiences (or experiences they’ve witnessed).

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  360. Curious

    I’m curious if anyone has been in touch with folks from Guelph. The deadline is coming up and there was some difficulty in the application – the instructions requested that applicants include letters of rec in their pdf. I can’t do that for reasons of confidentiality. My email to the contact listed has gone unanswered. Is this the earliest ever PFO?

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  361. market dynamics

    @newbie2 @squid game @Soon a veteran @Niles Crane Thanks for sharing! This is all very helpful!
    Re: @squid game’s (1) and (3) job market advice:
    (1) How does one figure out what a department might want? For most job ads, the language is very vague: e.g., they just say they want a M & E person. But how does one discover what kind they want, say, whether “the grounding guy” or “the knowledge-first gal”?
    (3) I find it hard to do networking. Is this a common request that people get or what others normally do? Could I just sneak in the request with a list of places that I’m applying to when I ask people to update my reference letters?
    Any clarifications on these points from anyone would be helpful!

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  362. Malcolm

    @market dynamics, often departments do not know what they want. Not only might individual members of those departments be genuinely open to a variety of ways that the AOS/AOC show up in the candidates, but as an aggregate, the department is not going to be unanimous on what is desirable. One person might want grounding, another knowledge-first, and then there are plenty of other background issues at play.
    This means that there are limits to this kind of inquiry: what does the department want?
    Candidates can look at what is mentioned explicitly in the ad, look at what courses are recently offered, what other areas are covered by existing faculty, and ask questions when given the opportunity at an interview. If your cover letter doesn’t speak to the ad, at some places (where they read cover letters), this will matter.
    Of course, some faculty ignore cover letters and look only at CVs. There is no surefire approach.

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  363. assc prof

    @market dynamics
    There’s a lot you can’t know as an applicant, but sometimes a little digging can reveal some probabilities. For example, if the chair of the SC has a research program on why armchair metaphysics is a waste of time, they’re not likely to hire a grounding guy in an M&E search. Likewise, if they have classical Chinese philosophy on the books, but it hasn’t been taught in 7 years, and the department webpage talks about diversifying the canon, then they’d likely be very open to someone who does classical Chinese philosophy. It takes sleuth work and sometimes it yields little of value, but this is how you figure out what a department might want. You dig on the internet. You talk to anyone you happen to know who might happen to know them. Etc.

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  364. squid game quote reference

    I agree with @malcolm and @assc prof on tips for reading what a department might want. Keep in mind that in going through this exercise, you also demonstrate to the department that you want to be somebody who is useful to the department. That might help your case, but it also might not.
    @market dynamics, unfortunately, I think networking is even more important today than it was in the past. In a sea of (roughly) equally qualified applicants, a personal note from a friend saying to check someone out can mean a lot.
    There are some people who will plug for you without solicitation. However, it never hurts to just ask people. As assc prof mentioned, ask anybody who might happen to know anybody connected to the departments you’re applying to where you could plausibly send the person a cold email. This should extend beyond letter writers. Your letter writers are writing something big. This informal request can literally be on the order of someone you know sending an email to their buddy in the relevant department saying, “Hey, so-and-so is applying for this job, I don’t know what your role is in the search, but they’re really cool. I connected with them at such-and-such blah blah blah.” The best case scenario is that someone takes a hard look at your file.
    And look, it will feel shameful doing this. It will feel like you’re using your professional network rather than connecting with people as colleagues and peers. But I can tell you that everyone knows how competitive the market is, how much people need any advantage they can get, and nobody would think twice about getting a request to do some informal recommending (if they do resent you for making the request, then that person is an a-hole and not worthy of your professional company, in my humble opinion).

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  365. There isn’t much you can do, just explains why it can look random

    @market dynamics
    I don’t think that you can know what a department wants, really. A lot of times the department itself might not know, and those preferences or sense of soft needs might not be stable across internal discussions. A lot will depend on the composition of the committee, and even the nature of those peoples’ personalities. So I wouldn’t try to hard (and anyway, its not like you can radically change yourself to have different interests or areas of focus at this stage even if you could guess). That is mostly just to say that the thing that determines who gets the job is not just perceived merit within the listed AOS/AOC. It doesn’t mean you can aim to figure out and match the other factors.
    The one thing I would say is that if there is anything specific listed in the ad or anything not totally boilerplate (a request for a second area, a program it seems you might run or add to or something like that) make sure that you speak to it. Who can handle that may be part of the committees’ necessary calculations, for all kinds of complex reasons and internal debates.
    As for the second, I would just check with anyone you know has ties to the relevant department (they went to grad school with folks there, they co-author with people there, who are also close to you) and ask if they can shoot the folks they know a message about you. It’s not determinative, but it might get someone to look at your CV a little more closely, if the email comes from someone who thinks well of you and whom they trust.

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  366. Just trying to vent

    Related to others’ difficulties on the job market. I am currently in my 6th year on the market. Graduated at a Canadian PhD program with 4-5 publications in mid to top tier journals for my discipline. Have since published 2-4 new papers per year, while teaching 1-2 courses per year as well. Within my small subfield in philosophy of science I am well-known, and regularly get invited to speak at workshops and contribute to collected volumes. Going into this year, I had 20 publications in good journals, I had taught 7 courses as the main instructor, and had strong reference letters from respected members of my community.
    In total, I have applied to roughly 225 tenure track positions in this time. I have had a total of 5 interviews, 1 flyout, and 0 offers. I have seen jobs I applied for go to candidates with a significantly weaker publication record than me, and many with weaker teaching profiles. (That is not to say that they are not strong candidates themselves; just that, on paper, I would expect that I am a stronger candidate.)
    I am nearing the end of my sanity in applying for jobs. When I ask people what could be improved in my applications, I am given very minor tweaks, but am mostly met with shock that I have been unable to get a job. Many people I know assume I am being extremely picky in where I apply, despite applying for basically any open or phil sci TT job. I have been lucky enough to support myself precariously on postdocs, but have now passed the point of eligibility for most of those going forward. Next year will likely be my last on the market, and I’m incredibly disappointed that my efforts have so far been for naught. I understand people’s frustration with the difficulty and randomness of the whole process.

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  367. Downer

    @Niles: I just wanted to thank you for your comment. It provided a lot of much-needed perspective – Hoping to do less spiraling and more writing in the coming weeks!

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  368. letters

    @Curious – I would just have your letters sent directly to the contact person – if it’s an official university address, they will receive it eventually. They are probably bombarded with lots of questions with the deadline approaching.

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  369. Severus

    How many people applied got the Idaho job? Every other day I see a new person asking about it! Must be a highly desirable gig.

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  370. Disgruntled

    It’s been a month and a half since my last campus flyout and am clearly not getting an offer. I’ve had no word/official PFO, but I would like solicit feedback back from those I met with in the hopes of improving my next campus visit. Should I just write to the department expressing understanding that I am not their first choice and ask if they can give me their comments/thoughts about the visit? Wait for some specific amount of time before doing so? Give up and shout into the void?

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  371. Relatable

    @Disgruntled, I think it’s reasonable to follow up at this point. I’m in a similar situation, over 1 month out from a flyout without any word. I’ve mostly assumed the worst, but you never know. Could be an undecided committee or a university-level delay.

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  372. A Wonderful Giver of Excellent Advice

    Disgruntled: If it’s only been 6 weeks and you haven’t gotten definitive word that someone else accepted an offer, I don’t think you can say you are “clearly” not getting an offer, though I would say the odds are darned low. In this situation I feel like a polite email thanking them for the interview, expressing your continued interest in the position, and asking if they can update you on your current status is unlikely to hurt you and might conceivably help you. In your shoes I wouldn’t ask for feedback on your performance at this point, because the person who receives that request might experience it as burdensome, annoying, or awkward. After you know for sure you’re not getting the job, of course, then fire away if you think there’s a chance you’d get useful feedback

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  373. Almost all of of those people are me

    Severus: I’m not sure what you mean by “applied got.” But I can tell you that almost everyone who has been asking about the Idaho job in the reporting thread is actually just one person, namely, me. I believe there has only been one query about the Idaho job that wasn’t written by me. I can also tell you that, thus far, 0% of individuals who are me have received offers of employment from Idaho State University.

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  374. Two Jobs

    Another year, another person taking both a post doc and a TT job… in ethics of all fields! I really don’t think this is right considering how tough the market is for everyone. I wish universities wouldn’t allow this practice. It’s not even that they can’t decide – they just want the prestigious post doc before sliding into their assistant prof position at a different place. Meanwhile, someone else loses an opportunity. Doesn’t sit right with me.​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​

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  375. Pomelo

    I’m having an issue someone posted about above, but with a different university. Does anyone have ideas for what to do when the contact person on a job ad doesn’t respond to inquiries? I’ve tried from two separate email addresses in case of junk filters. I’m not sure what to make of the lack of response.

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  376. Re Two Jobs

    @Two Jobs: That might be true but I find it hard to imagine that the practice will ever change.

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  377. eh

    @Two Jobs – universities have the right to say they want a particular candidate badly enough that they’re willing to wait a year or so to have them until after their post-doc. It doesn’t feel fair, sure, but I don’t think it’s wrong, and it’s certainly not on the individual applicant to enforce this norm. I say this as someone who has gotten zero interviews or fly-outs this year.

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  378. okay

    @eh, I disagree. If you don’t understand why it’s problematic to take multiple items from a limited resource pool while others are waiting in line, hoping to receive just one, then I doubt anyone can convince you otherwise. The job market has finite opportunities, and if people think it’s acceptable to claim two positions simultaneously, it’s no wonder our country faces the challenges it does today.

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  379. Assc prof

    If someone defers to take a post-doc, it often creates a vap or post-doc or lecturer position for out-of-luck insider grad students. I’m not so sure that they’re reducing the number of available positions by deferring.

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  380. 1st time applicant

    One of my postdoc interviews actually told me explicitly that they tell everyone they make offers to to take tt track offers immediately if they have them available for equity reasons. I think it makes sense to have this norm. They were an ethics postdoc, so perhaps they were more sensitive to these kinds of fairness concerns.

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  381. market economy

    A job market is not a breadline or a jobs program.

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  382. morality

    Market dynamics do not settle ethical questions.

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  383. limit 1 per customer

    The job market may not be a breadline, but there may be reasons to prevent the hoarding of positions.

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  384. Better learn it fast

    @Two Jobs – I share the feeling, and I am always surprised by the pushback people receive when they complain about these things.
    But I think it’s the American way of dealing with the job market: you only have to care about yourself. Get the postdocs and the TT! It’s more time to do your own research. Do not think about the others who lose the chance to be a scholar.
    Get more TT offers, even if you already have an appointment! You can renegotiate your contract or move to a better one. Do not think about the hiring line that shuts down for a few years after you leave or the candidates that never get to shine in an interview.

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  385. philpeople analytics

    I use the analytics section of philpeople during the job market to obsess about who might have visited my page. Has anyone noticed how delayed the data has been lately? It seems to arrive a day or two or three late pretty regularly.

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  386. Sort of delayed

    @philpeople analytics: Sometimes, a hit shows up on my feed but days later in the analytics section.

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  387. philpeople person too

    @philpeople analytics I don’t have any explanation to offer for why this is the case, but yes–I’ve noticed this too about the PhilPeople analytics this week. lol I’m just glad to read I’m not the only one who has the tendency to obsess over these things (in my case, at least, it’s an obsession)

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  388. Job chain study anyone?

    I’m waiting on someone to possibly decline an offer, who hasn’t accepted in a while. I assume they might also be waiting on someone to possibly decline an offer. I wonder how long a chain like this might get.

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  389. Mathematically confused

    I may be missing something, but I’m not really seeing how a person who takes a postdoc and a TT position is somehow denying others the chance to be a scholar.
    Postdocs are not ends in themselves. You get kicked out of them if you don’t move on. The fixed point is the number of permanent jobs (TT, teaching, etc). Thats what is denying people the chance to professionally be a scholar. So if a person takes a post-doc and fills a job in the same year, there are still no more permanent jobs open. If they didn’t take the post-doc that year and took the TT job, someone else would get the postdoc—but that person would still face the same number of permanent jobs the next year and if they get a job, are taking a job that would otherwise have gone to a person who was a grad student the previous year, thus displacing that person. Everyone who gets a permanent job is displacing someone, and everyone either has to get a permanent job at some point, or not become a professional scholar. Don’t hate the players, hate the game.

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  390. jobs

    @mathematically confused, I see that. But I think the issue is that when someone takes both a postdoc and TT position, they’re taking that postdoc from someone else. That person might not get any other positions and either face a gap year or have to adjunct (teaching 4-5 classes) with little time for research. This significantly hurts their future prospects for landing a TT job.
    In my opinion, a postdoc is supposed to help you train and prepare for a TT job. I think @better learn it fast is correct—this reflects the self-centered approach that it’s all about me and no one else. That’s why you see the “job market is not a bread line” comments.
    Ironically, it’s interesting to see how conservatives are cutting education funding in the US, and these same “who cares” people are now complaining. Suppose you advocate for unrestricted capitalism, where it’s only about what’s best for yourself regardless of others. In that case, this is the logical outcome – self-centered billionaires running the government for their own benefit with little concern for everyone else!

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  391. Not sure what to think

    @Mathematically confused: you’re right postdocs are not permanent positions and so allowing someone else to take the position would not guarantee that that person gets to permanently stay in the profession. But it allows them to temporarily stay. This matters since it’s increasingly common to have to do temporary positions before landing a tt job. So I take the issue to be that someone who has a tt position lined up is taking away the possibility for someone else to have something that would sustain them until they can apply in future cycles
    Basically the more people who take post docs and tt jobs, the less opportunities there are for others to stick it out and attempt to get a tt job in the future. At least that is how I interpreted the concern.
    It’s true that the real issues are structural (not enough jobs). That fact at a minimum mitigates the responsibility of candidates for making these choices. But it’s less clear to me whether that means they are totally off the hook. Can’t we sometimes make individual choices to help reduce the harms of unjust situations even if we can’t completely fix the injustices through individual actions? To be clear, I’m not necessarily endorsing this position when it comes to the question of taking postdocs with a tt lined up, it’s something I’m not sure what I think about.
    That said, I suspect that many who raise this objection about taking post docs with a tt lined up would do the same if given the option (but maybe I’m just cynical about this)

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  392. Mathematically confused

    I don’t think you have to get to unrestricted capitalism to think someone can take a postdoc and a TT job (for what it’s worth I’ve never done this- I’m reflecting a view I’ve thought out not a personal action). Your assumption is that a postdoc’s point is to be a holding place for a person who didn’t get a TT job or other permanent role. That’s not obvious. Another take could be that they are meant to give junior people research space before they have to take on all the complexity of a TT job. Just because you get one doesn’t mean you are well set up to shine in one.
    We are ALL making it harder for others. That’s the nature of a competition, and restricted resources are competitive. A person who takes a postdoc and doesn’t have a TT job is hurting current grad students- by raising the standards and publishing expectations for getting a TT job they leave future students in limbo for much longer. So by your logic, it would seem people who don’t have TT jobs and just get postdocs should I drop out of the field to not be a vehement capitalist and instead look out for others.
    The problem is there aren’t enough jobs and there isn’t enough support for people who need to transition to alt-ac or non-ac jobs.

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  393. dog eat dog

    @mathematically confused the difference is that people are forced out of academia when they don’t manage to secure a job in a given job market cycle. Taking two jobs in any particular cycle means one fewer person will land an academic job for that year, which means one more person will be forced out of the profession (either temporarily or for good) because they need to earn a living somehow.
    Also, ditto what @jobs said. What’s happening now is the natural end point of the “gonna get what’s mine” mentality!

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  394. Assc prof

    To reiterate the point I raise above: the people who take a post-doc and defer a TT job often create a stop-gap job in the department that they’ll eventually be TT in. That department has teaching needs that the person is not fulfilling by taking the post-doc. The kinds of departments in question rarely simply offer fewer courses, but instead create a VAP or instructor line to fill the need, a line that wouldn’t have existed if the person didn’t take the postdoc too. These positions often keep careers alive. I can testify to that in my own case. Without a last-minute VAP created to temporarily fill a departed faculty teaching role, I’d have left the field. There are surely exceptions to the kind of cases I’m highlighting, but let’s not assume that taking two reduces more net oppoortunities than taking one. Quite often it doesn’t.

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  395. saving early

    Economically speaking, skipping the postdoc would be in one’s self-interest, too. As a TT prof, you’d probably start saving a good chunk more than working as a postdoc, and you’d also start climbing the salary ladder sooner, which would grow exponentially by the time you retire.

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  396. market economy

    Obviously there should never be a market for scarce goods.

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  397. KIC

    Query: (sorry, again) CEU Knowledge in Crisis postdoc post-zoom interview?

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  398. Still mathematically confused

    But dog eat dog, that is precisely why I was mathematically confused. What knocks people out over time is NOT who is in a post-doc. Its the number of permanent jobs. Whether someone gets a postdoc MIGHT change the NAME of the person who is knocked out (maybe) but it won’t change the number. If anything it makes the overall situation worse by adding a year of looming uncertainty to the process.
    Picture the following:
    A gets a job, B gets a postdoc, C and D are grad students this year.
    Next year, B can get a job and maybe C gets a postdoc but then D is knocked out. And C might be knocked out the next year, after a wait.
    Or A gets a job and a postdoc and B is knocked out and next year C gets a job (that would otherwise have gone to B) and D gets a postdoc. Or C gets a job and a postdoc and D is knocked out…making space for E to get the next available job the next year that would otherwise have been taken by D.
    Or A gets a job and B gets a postdoc and then the next year B gets a job but C is knocked out because C only gets a postdoc instead of the job they would otherwise have gotten and C’s family can’t afford t uproot and move somewhere temporary for a year.
    The number of people who are ultimately knocked out is set by the number of permanent jobs. At best, the number of people in postdocs (maybe) changes the name of the people who get jobs (but it might also just extend a bunch of peoples’ timelines until they get certainty one way or the other.)
    Even setting aside Assc prof’s excellent point, explain to me like I’m 5 why over time MORE people are ultimately knocked out of the profession by people taking a job and a postdoc in a given year rather than just different people being the people who are knocked out. Maybe it means that more people are in the profession for one extra year, only to get knocked out a year later. Or maybe it means that people who can afford to uproot their families and lives without any certainty get the privilege of a better chance at not being the particular person knocked out. But I don’t see how it changes the overall number of people being knocked out of the profession over time, which is supposed to be the moral wrong you are saying people have a duty to help avoid.

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  399. even bride’s maids get married, sometimes

    Disgruntled
    Do not give up too soon. The first TT job I got, I was interviewed in mid-March, but not offered the job until the end of April. Why? Because they offered the job to another candidate who was trying to use it bargain for a position for her partner. Ultimately that failed. How do I know this – she told me at a conference (nice douche bag, really). That was years ago – now, she has about 350 citations, I have over 2500.

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  400. futher considerations

    just chiming in to say that, in @confused’s scenarios, getting a nice postdoc (which are the sorts of postdocs that would be relevant here, since any two-job-taker is only doing this for the fancy ones) vs. getting a last-minute 1-year VAP are not equivalent. The former sets a person up to have a much better chance at ultimately landing a TT job. So, still a net harm in my book by the two-job-taker. Had they taken one job, someone else would have had a job that would’ve had a much higher likelihood of setting them up for success. Also, I can think of several specific instances off the top of my head in which a department did not create a 1-year VAP for this exact sort of situation, so it’s not like the VAP is a guaranteed thing to balance it out anyway.
    Finally, it is still absolutely relevant that a 2-job-taker stops someone from spending another year in the pipeline, even if that person ultimately doesn’t end up getting a TT job. People are right to want as many “lottery tickets” (years on the market) as they can get. It gives a person more time to get more publications and possibly set themselves apart. Even if they don’t ultimately end up getting a TT job, it still seems to me that they can be harmed by having had one fewer chances (years on the market) because of the two-job-takers. I would personally feel harmed if I were in a position to know I had one fewer chances on the market due to someone taking two jobs (although, of course, no one could ever know that they were the one harmed indirectly in this way in a given year, since it would require knowing with certainty who would have gotten the postdoc otherwise).

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  401. confused is not confused!

    re: further consideration’s first paragraph: yes, but mathematically confused is pointing out that unless an additional tenure track job is somehow created, the reasoning above is confused with respect to actual overall numbers. It may be that there is some individual who is harmed (the person who would have gotten the postdoc). But if that postdoc made them more competitive the next year for some tt job that they got, the person who would have gotten it if they hadn’t is then harmed. Why are we privileging the first individual over the second one? (Also, mathematically confused is correct, not confused.)

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  402. Structural thinking

    I don’t know why people are assuming this is an individual-level problem. If it’s deemed problematic for one person to get both a post-doc and a TT position in one year, then the APA should issue a statement to the effect that universities cannot offer a post-doc to someone who also has a TT offer in hand, or the AAUP could censure universities which do so. To my mind, this is really not an individual morality problem but a systems problem and should be approached accordingly.

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  403. further considerations

    @confused is not confused: you did not engage with the second paragraph, which addressed all of what you said re: the overall numbers of TT positions… there is harm in having fewer chances, even if one does not ultimately land a TT job.

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  404. If you get two offers then good for you

    re: seeking and negotiating between multiple TTs. Not doing this can cost people tens of thousands of dollars which makes a huge difference to their families, to say nothing of costing them the opportunity to live in the same city as their spouse. It seems like an overly strong requirement of beneficence to expect people don’t do this or don’t look into other TTs once they have one, especially since there’s little evidence that lines dry up as a result. I understand being irritated that some people seem to get all the opportunities. But I’m not sure calling our luckier colleagues douchebags is in line with cocoon mission!

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  405. no

    @ If you get two offers then good for you: There is? What evidence is that based on? I can think of at least 4-5 TT lines in my AOS in the last 5 years that were not replaced after people left for other jobs, and I suspect this will become more common as universities announce hiring freezes.
    I also think @Assc prof is wrong that this creates VAPs. That is one data point, and you cannot generalize from your own experience that this is how it works everywhere. I’ve been in various roles in three institutions and the gap was always filled by a grad student in that department who would have been TA-ing. No new opportunity was created that could be filled with someone on the market who needed a last resort option somewhere. VAP searches are still time consuming and again, I suspect the overall practice will become less common as universities announce hiring freezes.
    Having followed this conversation every time it crops up on this blog, I find the claim that “we shouldn’t talk about this because this blog’s mission is to be supportive” kind of dismissive and cheap (though yes, let’s refrain from name-calling). I think that people who feel resentful about this have good reasons to feel that way, and it’s unfair that they don’t get a venue to talk about that because it might hurt the feelings of someone who won the lottery.
    I also don’t think it’s helpful to engage in the bizarre gymnastics of pretending no individuals and no departments are harmed by people who take both a postdoc and a TT job, or by people who job hop year after year. In my own case, my TT job was initially offered to someone making a lateral move who declined the offer to go elsewhere, and now that person is also leaving that job for another one. The position they are leaving is at a school that announced a hiring freeze, and the year they turned down my job would have been my final year on the job market. If this person had taken the position I ultimately got, I would not be in philosophy now. And if this person had taken my job and left the following year, the line would not have been replaced, whereas I plan to stay here for the rest of my career. This is just one example of this.
    Obviously, people are allowed or “have the right” (or whatever) to do what they want. But let’s at least be honest about what the costs are to the rest of the profession. You are allowed to look at your scenario and say “It’s worth it to me to move across the country for 9 months to take a postdoc with shit pay and defer a well-paying 2/2 TT job” or “I bet moving to a job in a place closer to mountains might be the thing that finally turns me into a less despicable person after already having moved twice and not having escaped myself” or even “I need to be paid more and can use the leverage of another offer.” That is your choice and there are no institutional directives preventing you from doing any of that. But you’re not also entitled to everyone else justifying your behaviour for you, pretending there are no bad consequences for anyone else as a result of them, and believing that you are a good person who did a good thing. These are the trade-offs and they are either worth it to you or they’re not, but you don’t get to have it both ways.
    As someone else pointed out, it’s precisely this “I don’t owe anyone anything” attitude that has contributed to the state of higher ed as it is today. It’s shameful and we don’t need to encourage it, and it’s especially confusing when people who didn’t get jobs at all do it. You sound like minimum wage workers defending billionaires.

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  406. NO is Right

    @ no . Exactly! This is exactly the issue here. It’s crazy to me that people are defending this behavior.

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  407. This

    @no THIS! Thank you for putting it so clearly. I am not going to “attack” anyone for being extremely competitive, but don’t force me to cheer for them either.

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  408. Oh come on

    “In my own case, my TT job was initially offered to someone making a lateral move who declined the offer to go elsewhere, and now that person is also leaving that job for another one.”
    Is your claim actually that people should stay in jobs they dislike that may keep them away from their family, their friends, their sense of home, their mental health and much more just to maximize the chances that other people stay in the field on the off chance the place they leave closes the line?
    That’s not a job, that’s a form of indentured servitude. I don’t think even most pretty demanding moral views would get anywhere close to endorsing that.
    You make it sound like people who have to leave the field because they don’t get a permanent job are murdered rather than having to work in one of the many perfectly fine non-philosophical jobs that exist in the world.
    Does it stink that there aren’t enough jobs for everyone who wants one and could do a good job? Absolutely. Its awful.
    But the answer is to think about mass structural change. It’s not to think people have some sort of duty to stay miserable. You don’t have to get to “I don’t owe anyone anything” to think you don’t owe them THAT — when the alternative for them isn’t being torn to shreds by angry eagles but….you know….working as a consultant.

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  409. again, it’s a structural problem

    If you think tenure line faculty are akin to billionaires, you don’t understand who is making the money at universities. Those who are saying that this is a structural issue are right. It’s an issue with the corporatization of education; it’s a social issue; it’s an issue with capitalism. I don’t have a view really one way or the other about whether people shouldn’t accept a postdoc and a tt job at the same time (but I agree with Oh come on about people being able to move). But it feels a bit like people freaking out (wrongly) because someone’s not offsetting their personal carbon footprint enough, instead of freaking out (rightly) about the way in which those with the power–national governments, corporate interests, etc.–are destroying the planet. People with tenure line jobs are not akin to those people. Go for the real enemy in your fight. And demand solidarity and care from your tenure line colleagues–they should give it to you. But vilifying them for achieving minimal “success” is distracting from the actual issues. The job market sucking is not those people’s fault; the job market increasingly sucking is not because a few people took a postdoc and a tenure line job; think about why the job market sucks and express your anger about the root cause of that.

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  410. Angry & Hurt

    After countless hours of preparation, 2 8-hour flights, two non-stop days of earnest and positive social engagement, getting to know the committee and vulnerably giving them a sense of who I am as a colleague and human being, back to back meetings, teaching one of their classes, giving a well received job talk, and generally pouring my heart and soul into this flyout…I finally got my PFO.
    I’m not upset that I wasn’t selected—every university has the right to hire whoever they deem fit. I am upset that after all of that, they sent me a THREE SENTENCE email thanking for my time and telling me the position had been filled. No encouragement, no feedback, nothing personalized but my name. When I thanked them for the opportunity and asked if they could provide any feedback on the flyout, they said that HR had a policy against it and wished me luck.
    Is this the standard? Even after they spend time getting to know you—not just as an academic, but as a person (chatting about your family, kids, hobbies, personal life, etc). It’s bad enough to not get a job you’re aiming for, but this adds so much insult to the injury.

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  411. Angry & Hurt

    After countless hours of preparation, 2 8-hour flights, two non-stop days of earnest and positive social engagement, getting to know the committee and vulnerably giving them a sense of who I am as a colleague and human being, back to back meetings, teaching one of their classes, giving a well received job talk, and generally pouring my heart and soul into this flyout…I finally got my PFO.
    I’m not upset that I wasn’t selected—every university has the right to hire whoever they deem fit. I am upset that after all of that, they sent me a THREE SENTENCE email thanking for my time and telling me the position had been filled. No encouragement, no feedback, nothing personalized but my name. When I thanked them for the opportunity and asked if they could provide any feedback on the flyout, they said that HR had a policy against it and wished me luck.
    Is this the standard? Even after they spend time getting to know you—not just as an academic, but as a person (chatting about your family, kids, hobbies, personal life, etc). It’s bad enough to not get a job you’re aiming for, but this adds so much insult to the injury.

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  412. Angry & Hurt

    After countless hours of preparation, 2 8-hour flights, two non-stop days of earnest and positive social engagement, getting to know the committee and vulnerably giving them a sense of who I am as a colleague and human being, back to back meetings, teaching one of their classes, giving a well received job talk, and generally pouring my heart and soul into this flyout…I finally got my PFO.
    I’m not upset that I wasn’t selected—every university has the right to hire whoever they deem fit. I am upset that after all of that, they sent me a THREE SENTENCE email thanking for my time and telling me the position had been filled. No encouragement, no feedback, nothing personalized but my name. When I thanked them for the opportunity and asked if they could provide any feedback on the flyout, they said that HR had a policy against it and wished me luck.
    Is this the standard? Even after they spend time getting to know you—not just as an academic, but as a person (chatting about your family, kids, hobbies, personal life, etc). It’s bad enough to not get a job you’re aiming for, but this adds so much insult to the injury.

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  413. Daniel Weltman

    Angry & Hurt: My impression is that yes, it’s relatively common. Many universities have HR policies designed to prevent them from being sued. These policies preclude people from giving you feedback etc. I don’t know if these policies make even a lick of sense or whether (to the extent they make sense) they in fact block what they are understood by HR etc. to block. But I think it’s relatively common not to get much to go on, so to speak. You may get better results reaching out in person next time you run into someone you talked with.

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  414. sahpa

    As I get older, I increasingly believe that “it’s the system!” is all too often used as a cover for moral cowardice.
    Morality is itself a structural solution to structural problems — paradigmatically but not exclusively, the prisoner’s dilemma, but of course other collective action problems besides. So beware of false dichotomies.

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  415. Even so

    Sahpa,
    Ok. But surely the structural problem that needs solving is “there are too many jobs for the number of people seeking them in this field and the act of seeking them is doing great damage to people” and not “four people took postdocs and TT jobs.”To pretend the latter is even a meaningful drop in the solution to the problem of the former so as to deserve being the focus of our attention or ire seems driven by some set of emotions that don’t have much to do with addressing the actual collective action problem at issue.
    If morality were actually focused on that, surely it would be honing in on things like (to toss out a controversial list)
    – Expanding public awareness of philosophy in high schools
    – cutting back on the number of students admitted to graduate school especially st programs with low placement records.
    -making more teaching oriented jobs secure permanent positions
    – increasing easy pathways to non-ac jobs
    And suchlike.
    The people not doing those things and not taking significant sacrifices to do them every day are many and massive and there is no reason to think it has much to do with a few random junior scholars fresh out of grad school who took a postdoc and a tenure track job because they wanted to maximize their chances of getting tenure rather than losing their job in 6 years when it’s even harder to re-tool.
    Bit it’s way easier to get mad at a small identifiable number of people you feel like of jealous of then to recognize the massive and hard moral problem that lots more people are failing at.

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  416. Golden Rule: a nice decoration for the mantelpiece

    Re: Angry & Hurt: Yep, I’m sorry to say that all of us are going through these same sorts of degrading experiences over and over again. And then, of course, what’s hilarious is that as soon as we’re in a TT job, we proceed directly to inflict these same degrading experiences on others, over and over again. The general principle is that those on the inside looking out can’t understand how things feel to those on the outside looking in.

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  417. Anony

    @Angry & Hurt – Sorry to hear you are going through that, but unfortunately it is terribly common. I even once had the indignity of experiencing all of that and then finding out that the search was for an internal hire. All of my sincere efforts were likely for a sham interview so that they could meet some university standard of how hires had to be made.

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  418. Closet conservative

    @Even so
    I agree that philosophy has problems, and one of those problems is over-producing phds–something that causes real harm, everyone knows we’re doing, yet no one does anything about, because it serves the interests of those with influence (grad students are cheap labor for universities and TAs for professors). I ranted about this here, under the same pseudonym I’m using now: https://dailynous.com/2025/02/24/the-financial-squeeze-on-higher-ed/
    Are these really “structural” problems, or simply problems that arise from individuals (administrators and faculty) being morally complacent?
    Several commenters in this thread blame “capitalism” for philosophy’s problems. This is richly ironic to me because philosophy’s problems are not seen in the business world. I have never in my life heard of a business offering someone a job and allowing them to defer their start by a year, so that they can take a different, temporary, cool job. The reason businesses don’t do this is because they hire people to help them serve customers, right here and right now. Universities/philosophy departments, in contrast, are insulated from market forces; there’s no pressure to hire help, right here and right now, in order to “please customers.” Customers are guaranteed, due to a combination of (i) state funding to universities, (ii) government-backed student loans, and (iii) the propaganda drilled into youths that going to college is necessary to avoid being poor.
    Without market pressure bearing down on departments, they’re free to make hires that are the coolest and bestest and awesomest and improve the department’s brand. Frankly, calling the philosophy job market a “market” is a complete misnomer. It’s much more like the rush process by which Greek organizations, and other cool clubs, add members.
    Someone taking two jobs, and departments allowing this, is clearly unfair, only happens because universities are insulated from market pressure, and not “capitalism’s fault.” It’s moral complacency.

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  419. A little bit of pushback if you don’t mind

    Re: Closet conservative: “one of those problems is over-producing phds–something that causes real harm, everyone knows we’re doing, yet no one does anything about, because it serves the interests of those with influence (grad students are cheap labor for universities and TAs for professors)”
    I do not believe that this is the reason for overproduction of PhDs. Perhaps this was once a reason. But nowadays there is no shortage of cheap labor to be found. Hiring adjuncts and VAPs is typically going to be as cheap or cheaper than running a grad program, I believe.
    I believe the reasons are these:
    (1) Philosophers mistakenly (and often on the basis of no real evidence whatsoever) believe that their admins expect and require them to be running a grad program and to be producing more rather than fewer PhDs. [Solution to this problem: Depts need to develop strategies for arguing that they create value for the university, for the discipline, and for the world, and that this value is not related to the # of PhD students they graduate]
    (2) People find it personally fulfilling and enjoyable to work with PhD students [Solution to this problem: Philosophers need to learn how to have fulfilling lives and careers without having grad students, or without having as many of them.]

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  420. formerpostdoc

    “Someone taking two jobs, and departments allowing this, is clearly unfair, only happens because universities are insulated from market pressure, and not “capitalism’s fault.” It’s moral complacency.”
    Left out in this parallel is that deferrals are often in the permanent institution’s best interest, and having a post-doc who’s deferred a TT job is almost always in the postdoc institution and PI’s best interest. From the TT institution’s perspective, the post-doc allows the new hire more time to research and grow their profile for free, and increases the likelihood the new hire will have a successful tenure case. For the post-doc PI, it of course means an employee who can focus on research and not applying for jobs. So I would say the institution clearly benefits, and is not merely allowing but often encouraging taking both positions.
    Post-docs should not be a place where you wait in line for a TT job! They are meant to be training opportunities that create new, valuable research and collaborations.

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  421. Math, again

    Returning to a point made previously, but not absorbed: The thing that forces people out of the profession is simply the number of available TT positions. People deferring TT offers to take postdocs does not increase the number of people who are ultimately forced to leave the profession. Compare Scenarios A and B.
    Scenario A: In Year 1, there are 50 TT jobs, 30 one-year-long postdocs, and 80 job-seekers. 50 people take TT jobs, 30 of whom also accept a year-long postdoc. 30 people are forced out of the profession.
    Scenario B: In Year 1, there are 50 TT jobs, 30 one-year-long postdocs, and 80 job-seekers. 50 people take TT jobs, 30 of whom also are offered postdocs. In this scenario, however, the initial postdoc offers are declined and eventually go to the 30 people who weren’t offered TT jobs. 0 people are forced to leave the profession this year.
    It might seem that Scenario B is preferable to Scenario A, since no one is forced out of the profession in Year 1. But it’s not. Think about what happens in Year 2.
    Scenario A: In Year 2, there are (once again) 50 TT jobs, (once again) 30 one-year-long postdocs, and (once again) 80 job-seekers. 50 people take TT jobs, 30 of whom also accept a year-long postdoc. 30 people are forced out of the profession.
    Scenario B: In Year 2, there are (once again) 50 TT jobs, (once again) 30 one-year-long postdocs, and 80 first-time job-seekers. But now there are also 30 more job-seekers finishing year-long postdocs. So there’s a total of 110 job-seekers. Once again, no one who gets a TT off also accepts a postdoc. The result is…30 people are forced out of the profession.
    These are just toy examples, obviously. But they illustrate how the total number of people who are forced out of the profession, on average each year, is not affected by whether anyone accepts both a postdoc and a TT job. All that matters is the discrepancy between job-seekers and TT jobs. (Of course, in Scenario B, those who get forced out get to spend one extra year in the profession on average. But that’s different than ultimately having a career in philosophy.)
    Having said all this, the job market is completely demoralizing, and lots of people who could be really successful philosophers don’t get to have that career because of the scarcity of jobs. And that sucks. But it’s not the fault of those who defer TT positions to spend time doing a postdoc.

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  422. Closet conservative

    @A little bit of pushback
    Point taken, though I’m not sure how generalizable “people enjoy working with PhD students” is, given how often people complain about unhelpful phd advisors. I myself meet with my advisor 1-2 times per year, and he starts almost every meeting by saying “We need to be efficient today because I’m very busy.”
    @formerpostdoc
    Not arguing, genuinely asking: Were you agreeing or disagreeing with me that it is unfair for someone to take two jobs?
    As to why departments allow deferrals, I think you nailed it: deferrals serve the interests of both the postdoc institution (PI) and the TT institution (TTI).
    However, I part with you on how exactly it serves their interests. You said: (A) For the PI, the hire can focus on research and not worry about applying for jobs. (B) For the TTI, the hire can research and build a future tenure case. These things may be part of the explanation, but I doubt they’re central. For A, is the research output of someone applying for jobs really that different than someone not applying for jobs? Of course applying for jobs is time consuming, but if I were not applying for jobs, I wouldn’t research more (I already research a lot); I’d just have more free time and would probably put more effort into my teaching. For B, the TTI was already reasonably confident that the hire has a decent chance of gaining tenure, given they made a job offer, presumably, before the deferral conversation happened.
    Alternative (more cynical) explanation for how deferrals serve PI and TTI mutual interests: the philosophy job market is a cool club. (A) The PI wants to hire whoever is the absolute coolest, bestest, awesomest candidate in the applicant pool (in terms of CV, how diverse they are, phd institution prestige, etc). *Of course they don’t mind if the first-coolest candidate is willing to defer a TT offer; that means they don’t have to settle for the second-coolest candidate. (B) The TTI also wants to hire the coolest, bestest, awesomest candidate. If the first-coolest candidate has an offer to do a postdoc at Harvard and is willing to defer their TT offer until after the postdoc, that will make them *even more cool and awesome (their bio on the dept website will say “Before joining our department, So-and-so held an appointment as Blah Blah Research Associate at Harvard. . .”). And whatever courses need to be taught while the deferral happens can easily be picked up by an adjunct or grad student (the “customers,” i.e. undergrad students, will not give a damn about this, of course).
    Meanwhile, the second-coolest applicant to the postdoc, or second-coolest applicant to the TT job, got screwed.
    Is this ethical? If a business did this, I’m pretty sure philosophers would unanimously condemn it, regardless of whether it was in the business’ “interests.” (I teach business ethics; “it was in the business’ interests” is never an excuse when a business behaves unethically.)
    Of course, businesses do not do this, because they hire people to help them serve customers, and they can’t wait on you to defer for a year. They’ll happily hire the next person in line. Universities, in contrast, don’t face this market pressure; their “customers” are guaranteed.

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  423. Math Matters

    @Closet Conservative: I just wanted to echo what “Math, again” said above, which is exactly right. People deferring TT jobs for postdocs isn’t what pushes people out of the profession.
    The number of TT jobs does not change based on whether people do or don’t defer for a year, and a postdoc is not a permanent placement, so the number of people forced out of the profession will remain exactly the same. Of course, someone who gets a postdoc will likely be able to produce lots of great work and go back on the market afterwards; but if this new work gets them a TT job, it’s not like the new job materializes out of thin air. Somebody ELSE will be forced out of the profession. The total number of people forced out of the profession would not change at all if people were compelled to not take a postdoc before a deferred TT job.
    I understand why you have grievances with the profession, and I agree that the current system is in many ways totally broken. But there is a single problem here, which is that there aren’t more tenure-track jobs. It has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not people choose to defer postdocs before taking a tenure-track job that they were offered.

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  424. Closet conservative

    @Math Matters
    First off, point absolutely taken, and appreciated. But because I’m hopelessly addicted to arguing on blogs, some push back:
    My claim “someone taking two jobs is unfair” doesn’t hinge on the claim “deferrals push people out of the profession.” I’m more thinking about the flesh-and-blood human beings—the second-best applicants to the postdoc and TT job—who would’ve gotten an offer (the thing they’ve been dreaming of for 5-7 years, or longer!), if one hot-shot hadn’t taken both jobs. I would be inconsolably crushed if this happened to me.
    Obviously, the job market sucks for everyone, and the fact that it sucks year after year without correcting (unlike job markets in the business world, where oversaturated markets frequently correct!) clearly evinces that something is off. Moreover, the source of off-ness is not the cold uncaring cosmos; it is choices by morally complacent human agents (i.e. administrators and faculty who knowingly over-produce phds). So, everyone has legitimate complaints, and I will happily commiserate with you about those.
    However, the particular unfairness suffered by the second-best candidate—who lost out because someone already holding a TT offer took their job—is qualitatively worse than the generic unfairness the rest of us suffer. They did the interview, the fly out (if applicable, idk), giddily told their parents/wife/friend/sister it went well, researched housing costs in Boston, dared to think “Wow, things may have finally worked out” . . . only to get a generic HR email saying “Sorry, no.” Then they see on PhilPeople, or whatever, that the candidate they lost out to deferred a TT job. I mean, I can only imagine the hell that would be that day. It’s like you and your friend Chief Keef were both about to make it out of the hood by signing with two different record labels, until he signed with both, leaving you behind. What an F-ing A-hole! What happened to “We’re all in this together”?
    Now, maybe these second-best candidates got other offers and so are not out of the profession. Unless/until they identify themselves, idk. But it is quite plausible that they only would’ve gotten the one offer. I personally know someone who spent two years on the market, and in this time got one offer: a TT job at Harvard. In other words, saying “If someone is second-best at Harvard, they must be first-best somewhere else” is not a valid heuristic.
    I would emphasize that my complaint about deferrals is not about the abstract math of who gets pushed out of the profession. However, note that just because the market is saturated doesn’t make it permissible for someone to take two jobs because “Well, there will always be many disappointed people who don’t get hired.” In my case, I could die happy if I could do just one postdoc and then leave the profession. My back up career is policy research, and the research output I could achieve as a postdoc would make me a more valuable civil servant/competitive candidate for policy research jobs. In sum, removing someone’s opportunity to do a postdoc is a harm in itself, not in virtue of “pushing them out of the profession.”
    Final point: The thing that grinds my gears about deferrals is not so much that they are unfair. The world is full of unfairness, and much worse versions of it than this. What grands my gears is the hypocrisy of philosophers. You can’t spend 90 seconds in a philosophy faculty lounge without hearing someone yammer on a soapbox about society’s problems. Racism! Patriarchy! Palestine! The Western canon is too white, too male, too stale! Trump is mean! Capitalism is alienating workers! Climate change! AI will displace jobs! Eating animals is evil! Meanwhile, philosophers directly cause, or indirectly tolerate, unfairness and harm in our own profession that is utterly within our control to prevent.

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  425. Still mathematically confused

    Closet conservative,
    I guess I don’t agree with you about the harm in question. First, I think focusing on the feelings of the one person who comes second in the postdoc is a kind of moral and methodological error. Its bad for them, indeed. Its also bad for the person who gets kicked out the profession at the point of being on the job market with no flyouts. Its bad for the person who gets a postdoc and then never gets a job. It’s not worse to get pushed out after a flyout for a postdoc then the other ways of getting pushed out at the stage of job-seeking. The bad thing is the number of people not getting jobs. That’s just not made worse by someone taking a TT job and a postdoc, as many people have pointed out.
    Perhaps equally importantly, I tend to think it is WORSE for people to do a postdoc and then get kicked out of the profession than not do a postdoc and get kicked out. In many cases doing a postdoc means that someone has to move to a brand new location, lose time and energy finding a place to live, upend or defer having a family, and if they don’t ultimately get a job losing a year of job searching and a year of better pay.
    I tend to think a lot of things that feel horrible by the emotions of the person experiencing them are often kinder and maybe the morally good thing to do – fail more people at quals, tell more people their dissertations aren’t professing. Don’t let people spend ever more years of their life dragged out by the search and uncertainty only to leave the profession. Perhaps it would really be worse for you–you are the rare bird who would die happy with just a postdoc- but the when we are making decisions at a systems level, we need to make determinations from a guess about average behavior. And I just don’t think that you have drawn the right inference in this case. I think a lot more people would suffer more for being strung along that extra year, to nothing permanent.
    TLDR, I don’t think all those people in the philosophy lounge are being hypocrits by acting in this way in the cases you decry, though they may well be hypocrits in other ways.
    And that person who comes in second in a postdoc? They are very likely awesome. But so too is the person they will displace if they do get the postdoc and then a job. That’s the awfulness of the system– there are lots and lots and lots of awesome skilled people who are suffering. Each one who gets a TT or otherwise permanent job is displacing a ton of extremely qualified amazing people.

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  426. sahpa

    That math was all very fancy, and yet it remains true that a person passed over for a postdoc, because someone else took up two jobs in one go, is harmed at least in the short run.
    @closet conservative: I randomly know of one example in the private sector that resembles this situation: in “big law” it is possible to defer your new associate position at a big fancy firm if you have a federal clerkship. It should be noted that this area of the legal profession is extremely prestige-sensitive. If you think philosophy is prestige obsessed, you ain’t seen nothing yet!

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  427. Math Matters

    @Closet Conservative: I don’t want to speak for you, but I’m not sure that you or I (neither of whom have done a postdoc or gotten a TT job) can accurately say whether we would be happy with just getting a postdoc and then leaving the profession. Occasionally, I can convince myself that I would be satisfied with this. But then I remember what it was like to be a PhD applicant, and how I convinced myself that the only thing I really wanted was to get into a PhD program, even if it never yielded a job in the end. Now that I’m nearing the end of my time in the program, I can say that I absolutely would not be satisfied without getting an academic job offer of some kind. I’m therefore pretty sure that if I do end up getting a postdoc, my current view of what my future minimum standard for satisfaction with my time in academia will be starts to look pretty myopic.
    N.B. I won’t regret having spent the better half of a decade getting my doctorate, regardless of the outcome. But I will be very sad if I don’t end up getting something, and that’s a good reason to think that a postdoc followed by a new profession would be any more satisfying than simply leaving the profession now.
    As for whether an applicant is morally wronged by missing out on a postdoc to someone with a future TT job secured, that’s much harder to gauge. But I think the following counterfactual is helpful: If Department X delays a TT job search by a year and then gives Applicant A the job in Year 2, and Applicant A ends up in a postdoc in the interim year that Applicant B would have otherwise gotten, I think we can agree that nobody has been wronged by the fact that Department X delayed the job search. So I guess I’m not convinced that Applicant B would be wronged if missing out on the postdoc was instead the result of Applicant A deferring the job with Department X rather than Department X delaying the job search by a year. Of course, Applicant B might benefit greatly from getting that postdoc, but that’s true of all applicants. In giving someone the postdoc, Department Y isn’t trying to find the person who would gain the most personal benefit out of their time there, but rather the person who will produce the best research output under the department’s auspices. I’m not sure what the morally relevant difference is between these two cases (unless you think that the postdoc must go to the person who will personally benefit the most from getting the postdoc; maybe there’s a case to be made for that, but I don’t think that’s what you’re arguing here).

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  428. Help!

    I have an on campus interview for a tenure track job at a german university. I am not myself german (and don’t speak the language, but plan to go to classes if I get the job), and I don’t know anyone well who works in germany in my field. I have heard, anecdotally, that german academia can be cliquey and that it is usually the case that they hire someone they already know. Can anyone let me know if this is just some outdated impression? Could anyone also let me know how german fly outs differ from the US? (there is a few things I have to do that I have not for other fly outs). I am really hoping to get this job, because I really want to return to Europe, and I no longer want to stay at my job in US in this current climate.

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  429. Double down or diversify?

    Suppose you’ve applied somewhere and advanced in the interview process there in the past, and you’re applying there again. Would you use the same writing sample as before or use a different writing sample that’s slightly less ideal given its topic relative to the ad’s needs, but not a bad fit and still a strong paper?

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  430. anon

    My own vote is “double down”. If you made it far in the process, then they like you more than they like many other applicants. Your success will probably depend not on the details of your self-presentation but instead who the other top-ranked applicants are this time around.

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  431. sahpa

    @Help!: my experience comports with what you describe. In my experience, German academia is more cliquey than the US, yes, and personal networks play a bigger role, in which rank/seniority is a bit more important. I was a visitor during my latter PhD years and a postdoc for several in Germany. I cannot speak to how flyouts differ.
    But none of this is really actionable for you, so I’m not sure I’d spend any more time thinking about it.
    You said ‘return’ to Europe so I assume you don’t need to be coached on how to tamp down your Americanness. Let me know if that assumption is false 😉

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  432. hiring committee member

    double down: You should use your best writing sample for all of your applications. If the posting is for another AOS and you also have that AOS, then that should be made clear in your research statement and cover letter. If you have two equally excellent writing samples (good for you!), then the AOS of the application could be a tie breaker. That’s my advice.

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  433. Gerbil

    Any advice for a Zoom flyout at a SLAC? Have done plenty of Zoom interviews but no flyouts, so I can’t infer what this experience will be like.

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  434. @Help!

    @sahpa, thanks so much for your reply. I do have good research networks, and a good record of grant projects with co-collaborators, which might have made a difference getting me this far. You’re right, I’m not American, I’m French, but I did my PhD in the US and work here now, so I guess I am more American now than French, in some ways.
    If anyone viewing this discussion board has any further insight to add, I wold appreciate it.

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  435. post doc

    If you’re the person who was offered the University of Illinois-UC postdoc in philosophy AI, but you have another offer (like a TT), please don’t take both jobs. I’m on the post-doc waitlist; unless I get this, I’m out of the market (Unless I can adjunct or something). I know I saw a thread or discussion somewhere here about someone else taking two jobs, and people had various opinions, and I’m not making a moral claim. However, if you don’t have to, I (a real person) would appreciate it.

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  436. to postdoc or not to postdoc

    @ post doc: To be clear, I’m not that person. I just wanted to chime in because I also witnessed that debate here and was surprised that everyone seemed to assume that a person has a (realistic) choice over whether or not to take two positions. That is definitely not always the case.
    For example, I have now accepted a postdoc because I do not yet have any other offers. But I am still in the running for a tt position, and it will take at least another month for that to play out, whereas the postdoc should start soon. So I have to choose between either (option 1) not accepting the postdoc and run the very high risk of ending up empty-handed, (option 2) accepting it and then breaking my word if the tt position were offered to me, (option 3) or accepting it and then postponing the tt position for a year if it were offered. I do not find options 1 or 2 acceptable, hence I am stuck with option 3.
    Let me clarify the background for option 2: the postdoc employer obviously knows that I am applying elsewhere and therefore wants to know whether I will commit for at least a year, because if I were to accept now and then change my mind in two months time, that would create all kinds of problems for them (both administratively, financially, and research-wise). Now if that employer were some big anonymous company I wouldn’t think twice about choosing option 2, but academia is not like that, it’s a small world, and I can very much relate to the situation that the person who is hiring me finds themselves in. Therefore integrity has its place here, because — in my humble opinion — person-to-person promises among academic acquaintances are much more akin to non-professional social relationships than they are in some dog-eat-dog corporate culture.

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  437. post doc

    @to postdoc or not to postdoc – I understand your dilemma. I think you’re in a tough position. But I guess I wasn’t referring to people in your position, but people who might be in a better position. Thank you for your insight. It is a bit helpful. Hopefully, if you’re in this position, it might be worth asking the post-doc Institute whether they could reach out to the waitlisted people if it is administratively feasible. just an suggestion, but I understand that is odd and look bad.

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  438. SearchScheduling

    Yeah I’m in a similar position. Got postdoc offers last month but my tt possibilities won’t be resolved for at least a few weeks. I was transparent with my situation but with the timing not lining up I had to accept the postdoc before I knew about my tt possibilities. We agreed that if I got news of a tt option by the end of this month I would back out of the postdoc, but if I got news of a tt offer after this month I would just ask for a delayed start to complete the postdoc first.

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  439. Boulder

    Does anyone happen to know if Boulder goes straight to fly outs for their TT searches? I know some schools in that region (eg Utah) do but wasn’t sure about them.

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  440. Re Boulder

    Boulder: pretty sure they are going straight to fly outs. I don’t know if this is always how they do things or just with this search

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  441. Boulder

    Re Boulder: thanks for the info! Just to clarify, by this search, do you mean that this TT bioethics search has already gone to fly outs? I was under the impression they’d just started with letter requests at this point.

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  442. Re boulder

    Re Boulder I meant that I think they will go straight to fly outs (after requesting letters of recommendation) not that they have already sent fly out invitations

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  443. Boulder

    I also heard through the grapevine that Boulder is not conducting first-round interviews.

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  444. Better hemlock

    QUERY: Has anyone compiled a list of universities currently implementing a hiring freeze, along with details about which ongoing job searches have been impacted?

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  445. interviews

    how does one know that their interview went well/excellent or that they bombed it? I recently had an interview which I think went well because the communication was good and I was able to answer properly almost every question (but there were some follow ups which I do not think I handled very well. does that mean, then, that I bombed the interview?)

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  446. anon

    re: interviews – It’s hard to know how well you did, and you’re probably best off not thinking about it too much.
    Sometimes it can feel like a conversation went great – but maybe the interviewer felt like they didn’t like the answers and they’re just a graceful conversationalist. Sometimes it can feel like it went terribly, but maybe that’s because the interviewee was stressed and everyone was super impressed.
    To get at what people actually think, you can have some mentors interview you and then get feedback.

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  447. Niles Crane

    @ interviews
    Pretty much everyone I know is tense and self-conscious when they are being interviewed. There’s a lot at stake and it is a weird environment to be in (especially on Zoom). So most people are prone to fixating on things they think they could have done better after the interview is over. If you left feeling like you did well, then you probably really did well. If you made a big mistake, you would probably be torturing yourself about it right now. So if you fell like you did well, then you’re probably right. If you don’t get the job, it is probably because of something unrelated to the interview (and likely not something you did wrong). If you’re like me and you have a tendency to replay interviews over and over in your head, wondering about all the counterfactuals, then it might be helpful to make some brief notes after the interview and then go for a long run and don’t think about philosophy for the rest of the day if it can be avoided.

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  448. It’s tough

    You don’t. I have had interviews I felt went well, and nothing. I felt like the interview for my current job went badly- enough that I walked away afterwards and told a friend “well there’s one job I won’t have.”
    It is super hard to read people’s reactions in a weird situation.

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  449. Question about teaching loads and salary ranges

    Are there any rules against institutions listing teaching loads and salary ranges in their ads? I know it’s often not in their interest to post this information, but I was wondering if there are any reasons besides this for not being more transparent. It would be so helpful knowing this information from the beginning.

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  450. Salary

    Re: questions about teaching loads. Often it will be a state law. Alternatively, if they are a state institution, just look up prof salaries. It’s all public information.

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  451. Been there

    @Salary, there are surely state laws for salary-related things on job postings, but it seems highly unlikely that there would be a state law for something as specific to higher ed job postings as listing teaching loads… the rationale for state mandated salary posting (or not posting) also wouldn’t hold for teaching loads, since those can’t typically be altered or negotiated anyway.
    To the original poster, for what it’s worth, jobs that don’t list a teaching load at all are often (but not always) 4-4. I agree that it’s silly they don’t list it in the ad, since many people are not interested in a 4-4 job and candidates will find out at the interview stage anyway, at which point everyone’s time has already been wasted.

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  452. Salary

    @Been there; yes, I was just referring to the salary portion of the question only.
    re: teaching loads; I suppose, again, while this information isn’t explicitly stated, some 10-20 mins spent digging through the course catalogs and filtering by names of the tenured/tenure-track faculty will give you a sense of what, in general, people are expected to do. And then some guesswork concerning how many sections, etc.

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  453. been there

    @Salary, I agree this can often be done, though not always. Sometimes the relevant course catalogs with this information require a university login, etc., which has prevented me from getting this info in the past.
    The main point, though, is that I should not have to do this kind of digging in order to figure out whether to even apply to a job! It’s disrespectful to applicants’ time to require them to go hunting for info that should be readily provided in the ad, especially when you consider how many jobs most people are applying for.

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  454. most jobs are teaching jobs

    Unless you have a research job, you are probably teaching a 4/4. Maybe 3/3 or 3/4. And research jobs are usually clear.
    I don’t think this stuff requires digging into the department so much as familiarizing yourself with the kind of schools that are out there. If you have to dig into the department, it’s not a research job. It’s fine if you just want a research job! But you already know most of those schools.
    I think there are exceptions: some SLACs (like Vassar), some R1s without grad programs (Auburn), etc.

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  455. been there x3

    @teaching jobs for many of us, a 3-3 is quite different and far more desirable than a 4-4. I personally am not willing to take a 4-4 job but am fine with my current load of 3-3. So this is precisely the distinction that I would like to have made in the ad. For what it’s worth, many of my friends on the market have similar preferences.

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  456. exceptions

    @most jobs are teaching jobs
    A follow-up about the exceptions: I’m a professor at a public university that only recently became an R1; our teaching load is 2/3. We do not have a graduate program. We take research and teaching very seriously in our department, but especially focus on research. This the case even though we are a pretty small department (under 12 TT faculty). I don’t think it is always clear that tt positions in our department are research jobs.
    Many applicants to positions here make the mistake of sending us teaching-focused job applications rather than research-focused job applications. (Even though we post the teaching load.) This is a shame because we might not be getting a good sense of the applicant’s research on the early application read-throughs (e.g., the cover letter is mostly about teaching, there’s a teaching letter when it would be better to have another research letter).
    A quick solution: In addition to clues in the job posting, a quick look at the tt faculty can help. For departments that seem in between, applicants should take a quick peek at the CVs of recently tenured faculty to see the amount/caliber of the research they are doing. If they are publishing quite a bit in good general and specialist journals, treat it like a research job. (This advice doesn’t hold for SLACs!)

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  457. Repeat applicant?

    I was wondering if I could get some insight into something from those who have experience on hiring committees.
    I’ve heard the idea that if the same program happens to be hiring two years in a row and they reject you the first time they may develop a negative impression of you as someone who is not fit for their department. The fear is that in that second application year they may view your CV with a negative bias, even if the CV has improved since that first application. Does this seem possible or likely to anyone who has done application review?
    Thank you!

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  458. @Repeat applicant

    @Repeat applicant: I have asked friends who have been on hiring committees about this and have gotten very different answers. Some say that it definitely leads them to have a negative impression and others say it doesn’t at all. The fact that the advice was so different makes me think it’s hard to draw any generalizations, but I would be curious if others have thoughts on this.

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  459. committee vet

    @Repeat applicant(s), the conflicting accounts are one of the reasons to focus on what’s actionable. You want a job (maybe this one). You cannot know ahead of time how being a repeat applicant will affect your chances. But, you can’t get the job if you don’t apply for it. So you should apply for it if you want it.
    If it’s a small department and it’s likely that the same people will be on the committee, then you can make sure the cover letter points out your progress since last time (but don’t say, “since last time…”). Otherwise I’d treat it just like any other job.
    This doesn’t strike me as the sort of thing job candidates can fruitfully worry about.

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  460. academic migrant

    I have applied to two different positions where I had unsuccessful interviews. One of them specifically mentioned that I needed to demonstrate what was different from my previous application when I asked. I got interviews with neither of them on the second application.

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  461. anon

    I had an interview with a university one year that didn’t lead any further, then I had an interview and a flyout with the same university a year later, using slightly updated job docs.

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  462. Repeat applicant?

    @acadmic migrant
    Interesting. Thanks for the insight. Do you mean you asked them before you sent in an application and they directed you to demonstrate how the application was different than the last year? Or that you asked after getting a PFO?

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  463. academic migrant

    re Repeat applicant?
    I asked them before I made my second application. It is important to note that everyone is sort of aware that every round of application is rather different: the pool of applicants and the people on the committee.

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  464. Negotiating a contract

    Hi everyone! What tips do you have for negotiating a contract? I received a job offer and understand that I am expected to engage in negotiations. However, in my culture, negotiating is considered rude, so I have no experience whatsoever. I have no idea how to even phrase my email response!

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  465. writing sample

    is going on the market (second time) with the same writing sample a mistake?

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  466. run it back

    @writing sample The advice I have been given is that your writing sample should be your best paper, all else equal.
    When might all else not be equal? If the job AOS is in area X while your best paper is in area Y, and you have a paper in area X, or if someone at the institution works in area X, then you might send in a paper on X.
    I’ve used the same writing sample for the past three years and done decently on the market FWIW.

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  467. Have some respect

    Can I just say how inhumane it is for a search committee to interview candidates in the first round and then not notify them when they aren’t selected for campus interviews? Like, have some respect. We’ve already put in some work to consider whether we could uproot our lives to move there, to make taking on their job viable, and you can’t even tell us that we’re not being invited to campus? I mean, they don’t even have to tell us that our candidacy has been ‘rejected’. They could at least notify us that they’ve invited other candidates to campus.

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  468. Be professional

    @Have some respect I agree! It does not happen super often, fortunately, but a NYC school did it to me this season and it felt really bad. It is also quite unprofessional so, at the end of the day, I am happy that I am not working there.

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  469. Offer Pending

    I was checking my application for a position for which I had finished a flyout, and my status on the portal has changed to “Offer Pending.” Does this mean that I will have an offer coming soon? It’s been with that status for two days, and I still haven’t heard anything, so I’m not sure what to expect.

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  470. don’tquitegettheAOCstuff

    My teaching competences and research compentences are not exactly the same. I have taught a bunch of classes in ethics but ethics is not a research interest of mine. what should I write under AOC’?

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  471. anon

    What exactly constitutes an AOC has been argued about a bunch previously here, see e.g.:
    https://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2014/08/what-constitutes-a-legitimate-aosaoc-etc.html
    https://philosopherscocoon.typepad.com/blog/2022/09/choosing-and-developing-aocs.html
    What you should write under “AOC” depends on your overall profile and goals, but just given what you’ve said so far, sounds to me like ethics should be one of them.

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  472. BG

    UPDATE: BGSU VAP offer(s) made and accepted. Ended up turning into two positions

    Reply
  473. slightly more in the loop

    Hi all, I posted here a few months ago asking if there was a list of annual (or at least fairly regular) postdocs that may not be posted on the familiar sites. I didn’t get a response, so I’ve started making a list of my own so others aren’t as out of the loop as I was this past year! Here’s what I’ve got so far:
    Princeton Society of Fellows: https://sf.princeton.edu/about-us/news/2025-call-applications
    Harvard Society of Fellows: https://socfell.fas.harvard.edu/
    Columbia Society of Fellows: https://sofheyman.org/fellowships/society-of-fellows
    Cornell Society for the Humanities: https://societyhumanities.as.cornell.edu/society-fellowships
    Dartmouth Society of Fellows: https://society-fellows.dartmouth.edu/about/fellowship-details/how-apply (was on pause last year)
    USC Society of Fellows: https://sofh.usc.edu/apply/
    Cornell Klarman Fellowship: https://as.cornell.edu/research/klarman-fellowships
    Northeastern Future Faculty Fellowship: https://faculty.northeastern.edu/advance/faculty-recruitment/future-faculty-fellowship-2/
    University of Michigan Society of Fellows: https://societyoffellows.umich.edu/the-fellowship/application-guidelines/
    Penn Mellon Fellowship: https://wolfhumanities.upenn.edu/fellowships/andrew-w-mellon-postdoctoral-fellowship-humanities
    Penn Provost’s Postdoc Fellowship: https://postdocs.upenn.edu/provosts-fellowship/provosts-postdoctoral-fellowship/
    Duke Society of Fellows: https://researchfunding.duke.edu/society-fellows-postdoctoral-fellowships
    Can any of you think of others that would be helpful to add to this list? Thanks in advance!

    Reply
  474. naive American abroad

    Can anyone advise on jobs that are listed as ‘instructors?’ I’m not very familiar with the US market. I had assumed VAP’s were the lowest entry-level position but I’ve seen several ‘instructor’ positions advertised for which only a Master’s is required. If one has a PhD, does applying and taking on such a role, look poorly on the CV or is it roughly equivalent to a VAP role?

    Reply
  475. re naive

    If I were forced to categorize one kind of position as “lowest (potentially) entry level position”, it would not be VAP, which is typically a full-time salaried position. It would be a contract to teach a single course in a single semester (and sometimes a person has many of these contracts, and long past the “entry level” stage, but that’s a separate issue).
    “Instructor”, at institutions in my city, typically refers to full-time salaried positions, just with more time allocated to teaching than assistant professors (visiting or otherwise) have allocated to teaching. Applications for the instructor positions I am familiar with can be competitive, since full-time work can be increasingly hard to find. But institutions use labels in all sorts of divergent ways.

    Reply
  476. Did you apply to UIC at Yonsei?

    Did anyone apply to Underwood International College at Yonsei in South Korea? Heard anything?
    (I know this should technically be in the ‘reporting’ area, but I’m not really desperate for a response as much as I was curious how many of us are so motivated to leave the US/UK/EU sinking ship of higher ed. that we’d head a long ways for a job.)

    Reply
  477. Niles Crane

    @ Yonsei: I applied, I haven’t heard anything.

    Reply
  478. Yonsei

    I also applied, despite having tenure state-side. I’ve not heard anything either.

    Reply

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