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The culture at elite grad programs?

In our newest "how can we help you?" thread, a reader asks:

I’m a PhD student at a low-ranking department. Some of my professors think I’m a shoe-in for a spot in an elite program and have suggested that I transfer.

But I’ve heard horror stories about the culture at elite departments. The going wisdom seems to be that faculty at these departments are generally unavailable to students, don’t work well with others, and are myopically focused on their own research to the detriment of their pedagogical duties. As a result, these departments are socially desolate hellscapes where students are basically left to fend for themselves in isolation. (I’ve put that last part somewhat colorfully, but it captures the attitudes of some people I’ve talked to.)

I don’t really believe this going wisdom, but I don’t disbelieve it, either. And it matters quite a lot to me whether the going wisdom is true. Since my current program is a wonderfully welcoming and collaborative place, the expected utility of transferring seems moderately high at best, given the going wisdom.

I would be grateful if those of you who are at elite departments, or who studied at elite departments, shared your insights about this. If the going wisdom turns out to be false, or false of a significant number of high-ranking programs, that will make my decision much easier.

I don't think the Cocoon is an appropriate place to call out or insinuate things about particular departments (see the blog's mission), so I won't approve comments that do that. However, readers who are (or were) in an 'elite' grad program should feel free to comment below–without revealing anything about their program or institution–about whether the "going wisdom" the OP describes is accurate in your experience. I'd also encourage readers to share tips for how someone like the OP might best gauge the culture in any department to which they are applying.

For what it's worth, I suspect there is probably significant variation between the cultures of different 'elite' programs. The OP might consider checking out the ADPA placement data for some survey-based comparisons.

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14 responses to “The culture at elite grad programs?”

  1. Kenneth

    At my “elite program,” faculty are very available and friendly. I have regular (every other week) meetings set up with two faculty. If I were to ask any other faculty for a meeting or to look at a draft, they very likely would. In general, it’s a nice place to be. So my program at least is a counterexample to the “going wisdom.” But of course these things vary.

    Reply
  2. anon

    The answer to this question can vary a lot even at one institution, with different cohorts of students arriving every year and with various faculty retiring / getting hired / etc.
    It’s a good question to have in mind, but it would definitely be a mistake if you took the existence of the question as a reason not to apply to a school.
    Instead, it’s a question to ask graduate students about if you get invited to visit a program during admissions season.

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  3. Daniel

    I’m a faculty member at an elite program so take this to the grain of salt. While I don’t think the description in the op applies to me–I meet regularly with students who I’m advising–I suspect that thinking of this stuff in terms of department culture is too broad. I don’t know how often my colleagues meet with their advisees or how difficult it is to get a hold of them for appointments. While my sense is that by and large they are available my main point here is I don’t think there’s really much of a mechanism to explain variation at the department level rather than the individual level. If I were being a negligent advisor I think things would have to get extremely bad before any formal or informal sanctions kicked in. And if my colleagues are meeting with their students a lot I don’t see that, and so I’m not pressured formally or informally to do similarly.
    So basically I think you’d be better off not asking about the culture of elite programs but about the students of the particular faculty you’d be most interested in working with at whatever programs you get into if you apply as a transfer, and whether they feel like they’ve been well served.
    I’ll also add that when I was a graduate student, as fantastic as my advisors were, I think I benefited even more from the other students (my grad program was also elite, for what it’s worth). A cllaborative, friendly graduate student culture is great. And while I haven’t experienced it, I’m sure a competitive grad student culture can be a real drag.
    So I’m not relying on some general Thatcherite position that there is no such thing as society, only individuals. Rather I’m just making the more limited claim that when it comes to how accessible faculty are, that’s more of an individual level phenomenon than a cultural one.

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  4. Recent grad

    I recently graduated from an “elite” program and can definitely say that for that program, this is very much false. The community was extremely supportive and faculty were very available (I met regularly with my committe members and weekly with my advisor weekly). At other ‘elite’ programs I’ve visited, my experience was similar. I’m sure there are some horror stories out there, but I don’t think that they’re representative. (And obviously, horror stories occur everywhere!)

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  5. sahpa

    I want to echo Daniel’s remarks: a) you should pay attention (and talk directly) to students who are advised by your potential advisors, and b) you should pay attention to the broader culture/climate amongst grad students. You will get the chance to visit during ‘admit week’ and see for yourself if the grad students like and support each other or are cold, or standoffish, or competitive. That makes a big difference.
    I went to an elite program and none of this ‘going wisdom’ rings true of my experience. I loved the grad-student community and like and respect my advisors, who did adequately prioritise their mentees.
    I have to say that this ‘going wisdom’ sounds a bit too much like sour grapes for my liking. Yes, some programs are awful; yes, some people have horrible experiences at places others loved. It’s just a mixed bag and you should be diligent about your choice. But this sweeping ‘going wisdom’? Nuh uh.

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  6. depends

    OP’s description of elite programs, to an extent, applies to my non-elite program. Smaller and less prestigious isn’t always better. Depends on the individuals you are working with.

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  7. Been around

    As someone with experience in both worlds, I think the dynamics are a little more complex than either “elite = socially desolate hellscape” or the opposite. For instance, my sense is that lower-ranked departments tend to have more factionalism and chaos, and more dysfunctional faculty who aren’t really up to the task of effectively supervising students. On the other hand, these kinds of places often develop really vibrant and supportive grad student communities (even if in part for “trauma bonding” sorts of reasons). By comparison, the great and the good tend to run a tighter ship, but the peer support system might be shallower in those places for students who aren’t ready to hit the ground running.

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  8. another recent grad

    FWIW as a recent graduate from an ‘elite’ program my experience was that these horror stories are totally false. It also dawned on me that those stories were usually most enthusiastically repeated by people whose information was several years out of date, or who seem quite personally pleased to have a reason to look down at an otherwise ‘elite’ place.
    Obviously you should carefully research any place you are thinking of applying, and you should give particular weight to how happy the graduate students seem (not just how happy they report being). But if that all looks good and the only thing weighing against it is that people outside the institution tell horror stories about it, it’s worth taking that with a hefty grain of salt.
    (Also, to pick up on a thread from @been around, I suspect ‘elite’ places sometimes have less in-fighting and chaos simply because they have more money. My limited anthropological generalization is that people are often happier and less likely to behave in twisted ways when they are having a nicer time, can afford to fly out interesting speakers, have nice meals, not have to carefully ration their research funds, etc).

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  9. Prof L

    In my experience, prestige does not correlate at all with this kind of thing.
    Also, many at not-elite institutions think that they are god’s gift to philosophy and don’t give students the time of day. Arrogance and narcissism are evenly distributed across people of varying abilities. Big shots can be super available and kind, and people who should recognize that they will never amount to anything much … don’t. That’s the power of self-deception for you.

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  10. A Philosopher Named Slickback

    So, first, I don’t know what is considered “elite,” T25 programs? T20 programs? Only the T10? (I get mixed definitions as to what “elite” is.) But assuming the “elite” threshold is above the T25, I have, actually, experience in 3 programs ranging from T25-10.
    I’ll start first with the program in the T25. This program is super supportive; from my experience, the faculty is present, and everyone is collaborative. However, what makes the culture a bit odd, is that believe it or not, some people treat their Ph.D as just another degree… with most people isolating themselves from one another. I found that this isolation was separated into two cliques. The first clique is composed of super serious students (making moves in publishing, presenting, and even book deals). While the other clique is grouped with “not so serious”, absent students that are never around, and the best advice I heard from a very successful grad student (who belonged, I guess, to the “serious clique”)was, “the program will never do anything for you, you have to make it work for yourself.” So that freaked me out.
    The second program is in the T20 but not in the T10. This is perhaps the MOST supportive program of all that I have been a part of. Everyone here is collaborative and super supportive, and faculty all go above and beyond to help their students. Not a single person has been toxic or competitive. On the contrary, I have learned so much from my peers. I think this is because everyone wants to be there, everyone wants to talk philosophy and grow as philosophers, so there is a welcoming vibe from the get-go. Also, the diversity of the program is really something else, a very welcoming place, indeed, for BIPOC folks. It’s a shame that I can’t mention this program by name because programs like these, I think, should be celebrated for cultivating such an intellectually stimulating and welcoming environment. And this maybe a hot take, but environments like these, I think, contribute to the success of their applicants on the job market.
    Now, for the third and worst program that, I guess, based on the rankings, makes them the most “elite.” This program is in the T10, and it is seen as very prestigious, both historically and currently (the program in the T20 also has a long prestigious history, but currently, they are not in their prime as they once were; however, I think they can be much higher in the rankings immediately if they wanted, for I think, it’s just a matter of hiring faculty in some sub-discipline gaps Phil Sci, Metaphysics, and so on… Because, by specialty alone, they are among the best in the world for what their focuses are on.)
    For starters, this “elite” program is hostile towards BIPOC folks. The graduate students, I have felt, are incredibly competitive, and all compete for the time of the professors, which makes it very hard for someone like me, who is not so confrontational and more on the passive side, to get their time. Also, for a program so well respected, they are very old-fashioned, do not encourage professionalism, and as a product, their placement is very poor. Whenever this has been brought to the attention of the faculty, it is often dismissed as “graduate students must have polished work before submitting for publishing,” but the reality is not the 70s anymore; we need publications and professional training. Today, not a single advisor will call their buddy David Lewis (RIP) at Princeton and fetch us a job anymore; we all have to apply the same way (at least, I think)
    So, in short, fit is what matters most, and that means different things for different people. For some people, they could care less about a collaborative environment, let alone a supportive one. What matters, perhaps, more for these students is oftentimes the clout that comes with being a part of X program where X is elite (maybe that’s why these students perhaps are tone-deaf to their fellow suffering peers and issues relating to BIPOC representation, justice, or equity, I’ve found that at such an “elite” program all this diversity talk is all lip service because remember we have to be “for it” because we must be progressive right? But these types of students, and even faculty, in my experience, did not care about climate issues; their focus was their work and being the favorite in the department. Because grad school, for them, is a short time to focus on work and that big tenure track position down the line… whatever). I transferred three times, and I was by far the most unhappy in the most “elite” program. But, take this with a grain of salt; odds are, you are not a BIPOC person (since there are so few of us) in this white male-dominated discipline, so my concerns probs won’t resonate.

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  11. Assistant Prof

    I went to one of the top 5 programs on the Gourmet report, and graduated in the last 5 years. As others have said, there is the potential for quite a bit of difference between faculty members, especially regarding availability. But my experience was very positive, both with the faculty and with my grad student peers. It wasn’t perfect, regarding either. But I had incredibly supportive and available faculty members on my committee, and also many others outside my committee who were incredibly helpful and giving with their time and mentorship. And my peers were wonderful and supportive. I learned a lot from everyone.
    It might be worth thinking about applying to some places, given that your current mentors think that would be a good idea. It doesn’t commit you to leaving. Then, you can have conversations with other students, as other people have suggested.

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  12. Grad student

    I’m a grad student at an elite program. I won’t say where, but it’s one that’s generally reputed to have a competitive vibe. I’m sad to say that these rumors are mostly accurate in my experience, at least with respect to our grad community. In two years here, there have been no informal social events hosted by grad students. People here do not seem to like each other. Very often, they do not treat each other with decency or candor. It’s not unusual to hear grad students in our department put each other down, gossip about who among their peers will and won’t make it on the job market, brag up a storm about their accomplishments, speak dismissively of less mainstream or conventional topics, etc.
    The faculty in our department can be somewhat aloof, but I think they are mostly well-intentioned. If you send them a draft, they will make themselves available for a meeting. If you need advice on some academic matter, you can ask them, and they will tell you their opinion. Nothing supererogatory, but they do their jobs. I think they are largely unaware of the grad community’s negative vibe. They won’t coauthor with you, or guide you step-by-step through the publication process, or read something of mutual interest and meet up with you to discuss it, or spend a lot of time teaching you formal tools that you need for your work, or go through your writing line-by-line and help you improve it.
    Our next-door neighbors are also an elite grad program, and they seem to have a much more supportive and inclusive grad student culture, and at least one famously hands-on and helpful adviser. (This leaves it open which grad program we and they are, by the way; lots of elite grad programs are clustered together.) So I don’t think my experience here can be generalized to elite grad programs in general.
    As for your expected utility calculation: You’ve been a grad student for a while so you probably know what you want to work on and how things affect you. I agree with everyone who recommended that you research the specific departments and advisers you’re considering switching to. Something also to be aware of — at least from my experience in my current program — is that the grad students at elite places tend to be averse to admitting to having negative experiences. They perceive this as un-strategic/unprofessional/a sign of weakness/etc. So talk to a lot of people. And maybe, once you have offers, go to the elite program with the better vibe.

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  13. Current Grad

    We do not have these particular cultural issues at my “elite”, Phil Gourmet top-10 program, though there is some reason to think that any such issues would be less prevalent at my program than others.

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  14. current grad student

    My advice would be: try to transfer, and then visit if you get accepted anywhere. Or maybe visit first if you’re intending to apply to a very small range of programs and you can afford it.
    I’m not sure what counts as “elite”, but from what I’ve seen at my own and different institutions culture varies widely across elit-ish programs (all across PGR top-25).
    Also, I’d take the ADPA data with a grain of salt—at least be aware of the response rates. The highest response rate is 23%, which given the small sample sizes seems really problematic to me, esp since there appears to have been no effort of counteracting or accounting for sampling bias. But I’m no data analyst. You can see the article here for yourself with more accessible info about response rate per department: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/meta.12527.

    Reply

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